#141 — The New Startup Stack: One Founder + Agents | Henrik Werdelin (Audos) and Ben Broca (Polsia)
March 27, 2026 · Listen · All episodes · Chat with the show's AI
Jessica Lessin, Dave Morin, Brit Morin and Sam Lessin debate the tech of the week.
Full transcript (AI-generated — may contain transcription errors):
Ben Broca: Like, I think Anthropic recently is ripping. They are, like, just dropping new products and new capabilities so fast, and that's what makes them win. Not that because they're the model company, it's just because they are just in this flywheel. OpenAI needs to catch up on that, realizing, okay, let us... not trying to do a social network , compete with Facebook. Let's actually go and just do the pragmatic things first.
Jessica: And a health product, and a shopping product- ... and a hardware device. They're still doing advertising.
Henrik Werdelin: But the other thing is this relationship capital. Like, humans understand humans best, and I do think, can there be a founder-customer fit where they understand the customer at a level where they can almost predict the problems that they're gonna have?
Guest: More or less. Is it no or is it yes? We'll debate the test that's best. When we get more or less. Dave and Britt plus Sam and Jess put it all right to the test. More or less.
Jessica: Why, hello, and welcome to a very special More or Less. Britt and Jess are in charge. Buckle up, folks.
Brit Morin: That's right. How it should be. How it is, actually. Let's, let's not lie. Yeah.
Jessica: We're under no, uh, illusions how this, this show operates, but this week we actually have two very, very special guests. So I'm gonna turn it over to Britt, who, by the way, her hair looks great, everybody. Check out the video.
Brit Morin: Mm. Thanks.
Jessica: It's, it's a special taping. Um, but Britt, who do we have with us in the, I, I should say hot seats, 'cause we're, we're very gentle, uh, interviewers, but you know.
Brit Morin: You know. We're missing our husbands, Dave and Sam.
Jessica: Are we? Are we missing? Should we talk about that?
Brit Morin: Frankly, we're not missing our husbands.
Jessica: Having a great week.
Brit Morin: I get to go to bed on time. I get to watch whatever I want at the end of the night. Like, it's-
Jessica: Amen, sister
Brit Morin: ... it's pretty special. Yeah.
Jessica: It's pretty special.
Brit Morin: And, you know, we thought to ourselves, like, well, we do like having camaraderie on the show. I mean, as much as Jess and I could chat for an hour, I'm sure it'd be better to have some different points of view. So we found two other gentlemen to join us today, both of whom are near and dear to my heart, and both of whom are building some wildly exciting things in the world of solo entrepreneurship, AI running your company, the future of the internet, and, and so much more. And so today we have Henrik Werdelin, who's the founder of Audos, A-U-D-O-S.com. I do have some people wondering if it's a car manufacturing company. Um, and Henrik is someone that I've known for 20 years now. He is a serial entrepreneur himself, has built things like Bark, which he took public, and through a studio he ran-
Jessica: Wait, Bark... Wasn't it BarkBox?
Brit Morin: Yes.
Jessica: Was that a rebrand?
Brit Morin: Yeah. It started as BarkBox. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Well, I think people might know it as BarkBox, so we have to give it the old thing.
Brit Morin: It started as BarkBox in the-
Jessica: Okay
Brit Morin: ... in the Box era. Yeah.
Jessica: Oh, I see. And then you dropped the Box. Got it.
Henrik Werdelin: It was when Snapchat was not Snap.
Jessica: I got it. Okay.
Brit Morin: Yes. Um, anyways, has, has built s- and scaled so many companies in his life, and I think is at the epitome of, like, what he does best, which is helping other people build companies. And then we have our friend Ben Broka, who is the founder and CEO of Pulsia.com, which has gotten a lot of press lately for helping people build the AI that runs your, your company. Ben was actually formerly at CloudKitchens, worked with, you know, Uber founder Travis Kalanick for a while, and then ran a company called Giftshop, and now is doing this. So both of these gentlemen are doing incredible things, and again, thinking about the world in which we might be living very soon, where there are maybe millions of donkeycorns, as, as Henrik likes to call it.
Jessica: What?
Brit Morin: Single-person companies making millions of dollars.
Jessica: Donkeycorns?
Brit Morin: Yeah.
Jessica: Okay.
Brit Morin: We're, we're rebranding it.
Henrik Werdelin: Donkeycorns. They grind like mules, but they party like unicorns.
Jessica: Oh my God. Guys, I'm already confused. This episode's gonna blow my mind. Okay. I'm paying, I'm taking notes.
Brit Morin: All right, all right, all right. So, so basically what I'm so excited about is, like, this space in general, right? And I guess, Henrik, we'll start with you. Like, you spent 15 years running a venture studio, building all kinds of companies. What made you think that now you could help other people build and scale hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of companies all by themselves?
Henrik Werdelin: Well, I think, uh, you know, as you mentioned, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out, how do we help somebody go from nothing to something? And when OpenAI, OpenAI came around, we were kind of, well, can we atomize all this process that we've built, and can we create agents that can help people do that? So we've spent quite a few years now trying to make that happen. And I think really the dream is to democratize entrepreneurship so that we can get a new class of everyday entrepreneurs out there that can take their relationship with a specific customer group and then use A to build a, an AI startup for them.
Jessica: And so this is like an agent builds a company for you.
Henrik Werdelin: Yeah. So, you know, with our platform, people come in. They might not even have an idea. It helps come up with ideas, help them build the product, the landing page, helps them connect with customers, and then what we have, which we announcing soon, is a new business model where we then help finance their business against a royalty.
Brit Morin: Super interesting. Yeah, it's the, it's... You know, we've talked about this a lot on the pod. I think Dave was actually one of the first to point this out, like, almost 18 months ago, which feels like sh- 12 years ago at this point, which is, like, vibe coding is coming. Now people that never knew how to code or run a business are all of a sudden going to take these tools into their hands, be able to build things overnight, and we're gonna go from 10 million people in the world who know how to build software to potentially hundreds of millions of people in the world who know how to build software. And, and by, by the way, like, profit off of it, right? And so that's what I think is, is so exciting about this. And, you know, Henrik, you, you're coming at this from a team at Audos of, of many people who are building all these tools for your, you know, burgeoning donkeycorns. But Ben, you are a one-man show right now. You have built Pulsia by yourself with a team of agents.
Jessica: No humans involved. And your philosophy is slightly different in that I think you believe that the entrepreneurs of the future will also be solo entrepreneurs like you and don't need full teams, and ultimately it's kind of the one-man or one-woman company is, is the future. Can you expand on that?
Ben Broca: I mean, yeah. Um, I mean, in my opinion, like AGI is here, right? Which means the AIs, the AI models are super intelligent, they can reason on anything given the context, and they are fluent at using any tool. Which just means that, like, if you push the, the argument, like AI can run the economy now. The issue is, is that we need to educate everyone as soon as possible to become part of this new economy, which is gonna be AI augmented. Every company will be, have 80% to 90% of it com- be c- fully autonomous. And honestly, the, the, the, the fastest way to start a company is just one person, right? If you start adding a couple of people, then there's already friction because they have to find each other, they have to agree on equity, they have to debate. A one-person company is always gonna be more efficient, but it used to be, uh, so frowned upon. It would be like the bootstrapped person. It was like, you know, it's not ambitious, and like maybe they, they have to do compromises because they can't build as big of a platform as before. But now that, you know, you can take a human salary and, and it literally offer that salary to an AI that costs like one thousandth of the price or, you know, and runs 24/7. You can have one person with a, a, an AI team that can go really, really far. And that constraint I put on myself of staying one person is a testament to, like, pushing the boundaries, right? And so feeling the pain, 'cause it's painful.
Jessica: Mm.
Ben Broca: Meaning like, you know, for a long time, like I, I was waking up every two hours to check that the platform was still f- live, right? Now I found out the solution-
Jessica: Your AI can shake your Eight Sleep to wake you up.
Ben Broca: I like that. That's a great slogan.
Jessica: I, yeah, we solved it. But Ben, can I push you on AI can run the economy today in March 2026? Because, you know, my Claude can't remember what I told it to do yesterday. Now, my Claude Code can, but my Claude Cowork can't. So say more about, you know, I mean, I, I think the definition of AGI being here or not here is, like, mostly semantic, but like what are you actually seeing that gives you the confidence to say AI can, like, run, we're at the point where it can run the world?
Ben Broca: Well, to, to answer your, your question, I would say skill issue, right? No, no pun intended. Meaning if you think about what... So first of all, I say AGI is here. It's part of, like, a, a provocative s- series of statements and marketing to wake people up. Because w- however you wanna define AGI, it doesn't matter.
Jessica: Exactly, yes.
Ben Broca: A superhuman intelligence is here.
Jessica: We're two weeks away from super intelligence. You heard it here first. You know?
Ben Broca: I'm like, I'm like, you know, I'm living in the future, so AGI is here. Uh, so maybe it's here in two weeks, and I'm exaggerating. It doesn't really matter. I mean, Jensen said it the other day, right? He said that AGI is here.
Jessica: Well, well, I was just gonna say, but, but like-
Ben Broca: Or maybe he's also being provocative, or maybe he's trying to pump his, his stock.
Jessica: I can't imagine why Jensen Huang would want people to think AGI is here. You know, I can't imagine how that, what that would do to GPU sales. But maybe I'll ask the question differently. The technology you're building, what are the limitations at the moment? Because there, there can't be any limitations. You're still here, right? Like, so what do you see as... And, and maybe that's a way of saying like in six months, what do you think you'll be able to do that you can't do now on the platform?
Ben Broca: So, I mean, I, I truly, truly believe that there's no limitations today, honestly. If, if engineered the right way with the right guardrails, with the right sort of like infrastructure players that, like, are agentic friendly, meaning they allow an agent to actually do anything in the economy, which today is not the case, meaning they have great limits, they are not used to an a- they see agents as spam. So that's sort of the limitations today. It's not really the capabilities of the model. It's more like the infrastructure of the internet that's not meant for agents. So there's, that's why there's a whole series of companies that build that, and we are, we are building that at the platform level, and I'm partnering with a lot of companies at the infra level to build that. What are the limitations of AI, is that AI can do the, can run the operations, but in a world where humans are, have the wallet share, humans decide with their wallet what goods and services are worthy of attention and spend. Then another human on the other side is actually only a human is suited to understand in March 2026 what are the marketing techniques, what are the branding techniques, what are the price points, what resonates with people. So, for example, the marketing I'm doing, you know, like I didn't do a launch video on Twitter. I'm just screenshotting blurry screenshots of, like, a scrap that goes up, right? Well, it's like that was my intuition. Like, that's provocative. It's like a little annoying. It's a little douchey, but, like, it wakes people up because it's like, it's like, "What, what do you mean?" And repeating one AI, one founder, plus AI, zero employees every single time, it's like, okay, that's my intuition on, like, what I think will resonate with people right now, and so far I'm right. And right now I'm working with a lot of super talented marketers, and I'm like, how can we reinvent marketing in a world where, like, where people may, may have different perspectives on, like, how to, how they react to marketing? So to long story short is that AI, to me, is, is, is ready and ready to execute on the grunt work of the operations of running a company. AI is not good at n- really knowing what people want and really understanding the subtleties of what moves people. It may get there, but, like, maybe it will never get there because when it gets there, you, the market will be flooded with, like, that perspective, and humans will be like, "That's AI." I'm not interested anymore. And then humans will be like, "Actually, now the new thing is offline." Okay, now it's like person to person thing. But sort of like, let's say you're like, "Okay, you know what? I have a new company. It's, uh, it's emails, but it's human to human." And like literally you, you send... It's like someone writes a piece of paper and then they go to another person, it's an email. Like, whatever. That's a great business.
Jessica: It's called the post office. Yes, with humans.
Ben Broca: Yeah. And by the way, by the way, it sounds like a great idea. Yeah, ex- yeah, it's post office-
Jessica: Oh, it's fun
Ben Broca: ... but you rebrand it as, you know, like, email, email 3.0, you know, .com.
Brit Morin: We have a, we have a- ... fun phrase that we use throughout Offline Ventures that's, that's actually gone, like, more meme-ified globally, which is, "Offline is the new luxury," right? Kind of works for our brand. But I like what you said about brand by the way, and I've noticed this in your marketing with Pulsia, it's always, like, one human, one, you know, team of agents. Like, you repeat the same thing over and over again in your, all your marketing, all your tweets. And you're right, like, in a world that is so crowded across social media, like, part of the brand itself has, it, that could be really relevant is to repeat something every time you talk. And I don't actually see that many brands doing that. Jess, you should, you should take note of this for the information.
Jessica: Well, we're doing the first in the information. We're trying this. We're just saying first, first, first, first. Yeah, we're trying.
Brit Morin: Oh, there you go.
Jessica: But by the way, um, I was recently with you when you bought note cards to write handwritten letters-
Brit Morin: We did. Offline is the new luxury
Jessica: ... to people. How is this going, and where is my note card?
Brit Morin: You're on the list, don't worry.
Jessica: Okay.
Brit Morin: But yes, we-
Jessica: I just had an idea
Brit Morin: ... we went to a stationery store- ... and I bought Japanese stationery. And I told Jess, you know, "I'm gonna sit down every morning a few times a week to actually send handwritten notes to people." Because in this world today, we've gone so agentic and AI everything that I think, I think people will really respect that.
Jessica: I just want mine written with a quill. There we go. Okay.
Brit Morin: Okay. I've never learned to write with a quill. I'm not from, like, the 1700s. But my terrible handwriting will get you something. Okay, I wanna flip it to, back to Henrik too, because Henrik, hearing what Ben said, what parts of that do you agree with or disagree with, and, like, how are you coming at this differently with your philosophy for Ottos?
Henrik Werdelin: Well, I think in many ways I agree a lot with Ben. When we started, we thought we would need no humans. And so the first version of our platform basically went out and tried to find problems on the internet, then it created landing pages, then we had conversion funnels, and then it basically pinged us when we had our first paying customers. And it was crazy stuff, like literally crazy shit like, uh, people wanted to buy fecal transplant from Olympian athletes and stuff like that, which turned out to be legal, by the way. And so we got so obsessed about-
Jessica: That is what the AI identified as a great business opportunity?
Henrik Werdelin: Uh, I mean, like, that-
Brit Morin: Did the human ask for that?
Henrik Werdelin: That was pe- that was when the CAC was low. I mean, like-
Brit Morin: CAC was low.
Henrik Werdelin: Tampons for born women, now men, that didn't want feminine products. I mean, like, it was some pretty advanced stuff that came out there. But what we got obsessed about was, to Ben's point, that you need a human in the loop. You need a relationship, a customer-founder fit. And so we spent, like, the first year and a half not being good as Ben of, like, uh, tweeting, but writing a book about what we call relationship capital. And so everything that we're focused on now is like, how do we get somebody in who has authenticity and authority who is in a specific affinity group? And then how do we help them build a product for that group? And what we can see is that, you know, we have people like Sarah who lost her dad, and then she built a business about grief counseling, or Matt, who, uh, took up golf and now is really good at understanding how to improve your golf swings. And so the businesses that are coming out now to, to Ma- uh, to Ben's point is people centric, but then obviously it used to be incredibly difficult to build these things, and now specifically off the club code, you can, you can have machines help you do it.
Brit Morin: What makes this defensible? This is Sam's question, by the way. If Sam were here.
Jessica: Oh, I was just gonna say, where's Sa-
Brit Morin: Do you wanna be Sam right now, Jess? I think you could do him, his best impression.
Jessica: I mean, it's also my que- well, yeah. Well, it's a good question. What makes this defensible if the agents are gonna-
Brit Morin: He would also say, "Is this just all, like, narrative hype and, you know, you're winning the market based on this narrative?"
Jessica: No, he likes narrative.
Brit Morin: I know, but he also thinks it's, like, not defensible. Yeah. He, he would think both of these things aren't.
Jessica: Defensible/VC-backed.
Henrik Werdelin: I mean, like, I think what we will see is a lot of people trying to go after this space. You know, there's obviously Ben and, and us, and, and there's, like, Paperclip just came up, and there's, like, Base34 with a super agent, and Lovable. And, like, I think a lot of people, and I think it, that is a good thing, will now try to help people build a business, and, and so, you know, hurrah for that. I think what will happen is that there will be somebody, there are people that will have a really good relationship with a segment of, of an audience. But I think, and the reason why we talk about DonkeyCorn, is that what we might see is not that we're building tons of unicorns. I'm sure that we will have that too. But also that we'll see, and I hope that, like, a million people becoming internet millionaires by building something on top of it. And I think for them, that is an incredibly good living, and we shouldn't forget that over half of the, of the US population work for a small company that I think it's 89% of all new jobs last year came from a small company. And so I think in many ways, what I hope is what we saw with, uh, Roblox and YouTube and Airbnb, is that we can foster this whole new class of entrepreneurs that we might not have been talking too much about because we were very excited about u- uh, unicorns.
Brit Morin: So basically, I've heard the analogy, like, this is the next Shopify kind of category where small businesses can come and build a business on top of a platform. Ben, is that the analogy you would use, and how would you think, how do you think about the overall defensibility of the space?
Ben Broca: Defensibility of, like, companies like both our companies, is what you mean?
Brit Morin: AI, AI-built companies. Yeah.
Ben Broca: I mean, I mean, Pulsia, uh, I can only talk about Pulsia specifically, but- We're not building a tool, it's building an economy. So if you think about entrepreneurs going into Pulsia, building a new business, that maybe starts making 100 bucks MR, thou- 500 bucks MR, and then we're gonna build an investor layer of investors that don't have to be your level of investors, but maybe, uh, but middle class investors that maybe invest in stock market or, and then they go to like a platform like Pulsia and they can have an agent sort of like invest or acquire companies on Pulsia. You start creating an, a sort of like m- much more liquidity in an economy where like you have people, builders that like have new ideas and like create new ideas, and then you have investors that are like either invest or acquire and grow and do roll-ups of, of, of that. And so i- if you believe that's possible, meaning you believe AI is, is able to enable millions of people to get new ideas out there and build them, and if you believe that like there's al- still gonna be investors that are gonna be interested in investing in new ideas and like funding them and acquiring them, and so essentially you believe that like the capitalism is gonna be more and more vibrant, you start building a stock market. You start building like an economy. You start building, and then with that economy you can add more players. You can add like, you know, loans. You can add like a marketplace of, of customers that can discover companies and services. I think that's very defensible, uh, because there's a lot of network effects. Now you have to believe AGI is here. 'Cause if you don't think, believe AGI is here, this whole economy is just slop, right? It's just like it doesn't work, it's not, you know, it, uh, you know. But if you believe it's here, it's like, I mean, I think there's gonna be many Pulsias.
Jessica: I, I'm really struck by what I've seen happen in my business in sort of the news information business with sort of blogging and everything else, right? So we saw the internet came along, and all of a sudden it democratized the co- the tools for being a content creator or journalist or any, any kind of content creator. And a lot of people pin their hopes on building an independent business with these tools, whether it was traditional journalists who left big publications for Substack or, you know, just new writers who are emerging. And, and what's basically happened is like, yeah, there are a few hits, right? There are people who are making a lot of money on Substack. But it's really just a few hits, and then other people who are doing it but they're, they're not making money off it, right? They're doing it for expression or to feed into some other business. And basically it just, everything, content kinda got a little more commoditized. And yes, there was a, a pool that was, you know, was able to make it big and, and that's cool that they use that tool, but like the vast, vast majority of the people who like came to these platforms for the promise of building new businesses just haven't. And, and bec- b- largely because of there, it just was sort of deflationary in some respects. So why won't that happen with AI?
Ben Broca: I mean, I think that platforms like Substack, like, like all the social media platforms, they enabled more people with voices and creativity to express themselves and get an audience or, or maybe think about platforms like Etsy to like be able to build craft and sell. Now, is everyone on Etsy a millionaire? No. There's some people making, uh, 10 bucks a month, some people making 100, some making 1,000. Uh, it depends on how much energy they put, how much taste they have, how, how they think about distribution channels, how they think about sort of like all this. I just think that like if you think about how all the internet collectively enabled more people to be more sort of like independent in their choices of how they make money and how they choose to work. 'Cause if you, you know, some people say like, "Oh, Uber is so bad," like the gig economy, it's so negative. But if you think about, talk about the people that like actually have three jobs and like are able to just stack incomes and like decide, "Oh, you know what? I'm gonna turn on Uber this weekend because I just need cash right now," and then turn it off. Now, is it profitable for them? I don't know. I mean, I'm not, I'm not in the Uber business. Maybe it's not. Maybe if you d- uh, account for insurance it's not great. But still, people have a choice to just decide across all these different ways to make money and make a living how to do it, right? And so I think AI is gonna, AI and platforms like Otto or like Pulsia or like CloudCode or like whatever enables people to create more things. And so that, w- does that mean that like all those things will be profitable or, or, or, or blockbuster successes? Probably not. But is it gonna grow the economy? 100%. Because there's gonna be, you know, sort of like more economic actors, more things sold, more things bought, uh, more diversity, more unique things. Because if you, if you create 1,000 things, you probably have like a couple, uh, you know, maybe like, uh, 10 or 20 things that are great and amazing. If you can create like a billion new things a year, maybe you have like, you know, hundreds of thousands of things that are unique and amazing. And maybe, you know, when you buy a candle, today you have, uh, you have a choice between, uh, 10 brands that resonate with you, and maybe tomorrow it'll be 100. And maybe you'll be so happy to give, to buy the candle that you would've bought at like whatever, DT-
Jessica: Is there demand for 100 candle makers? Like I, and I, I, I'm just playing devil's advo- Like, I'm just arguing all si- I, I think the reality is we don't know, right, because this stuff is so new.
Ben Broca: Well, I know, but you don't know.
Jessica: Well, I don't know. We should, we should check in in a couple years. But I, I think-
Ben Broca: Let's, let's-
Jessica: And Henrik, I'm gonna go to you in a second
Ben Broca: ... deal.
Jessica: But like it is really a question, like there's no doubt today that I think the people on your platform, and I'd love to learn more about their businesses, right, have found that discontinuity, if you will. Like, they found these opportunities where there's some market need, they aren't being met, and you can automate serving that need in some way. But if you really believe in AGI and us all having a gazillion agents, don't those opportunities like kind of collapse because everyone and all tell like, I could just tell my agent Not go build me this business, but go figure out every business that could possibly be built, and go build it. And everyone's agents are telling them that, right? So-
Henrik Werdelin: Yeah, but I mean, like, I think, and this might just be, like, a too early philosophical question, but I mean, like, all of us was part of, like, building the social web, and like, I think I remember how excited we were when we took pictures of stuff and, and that, you know, of, of food, and we could show it to each other. Little did we know that we helped kind of destroy the headspace of a, of a generation of young people, right? And so if the best way is to predict the future is to make it, then I also think in many ways we do have a responsibility of trying to say, what can we actually do with this technology that could be pretty useful? And I think you're very right, Jess, that there is a, there is a chance that we'll all end up working for the foundational models, and then, you know, that kind of is what it is, right? I think for what I think Ben and we're doing, is that we're trying to say, "Hey, if we can take..." 60% of Americans say they'd like to build something, and only, like, 8, 9% go out and actually do it. And so there's this gap between, like, the intent of wanting to go out and serve community and then the people that actually do it. Now, some of the people maybe just say they, they can't do it, they can't do it, but for a lot of it, it was the capability issues, right? Like, they didn't know how to code, they didn't know how to do marketing, they didn't know all these different things. And I think over the last six months, they now have the ability to do so. And so there could also be this beautiful abundance universe where people who truly care about somebody else and understand their problems on a very granular level can now say, "I can understand how to build something on top of, of AI, and I can build a meaningful business doing that on your behalf." And for me, like, this idea of a million people making a million dollars is just incredibly exciting to the alternative of, like, we all working for Sam Altman.
Jessica: Or Dario or Demis. By the way, guys, I have a... Sorry, this is a good point. I have a, my advanced copy of the new Demis biography here-
Henrik Werdelin: Oh, wow.
Brit Morin: Oh
Jessica: ... by Sebastian Mallaby, called The Infinity Machine.
Henrik Werdelin: What's the, what's the, what's your initial thoughts?
Brit Morin: Look at all your Post-Its.
Jessica: I know. I, I really, I, I earmarked the information references. No, no, I... There are way more than that in here. This is an amazing book, and I think it comes out soon, and I actually have no idea if I have permission to even share this. But it i- Demis gave Sebastian Mallaby, like, I think 40 hours of interviews or 30 hours of interviews. So it's this huge, I mean, very, very in-depth biography. And, like, honestly, and I haven't read every part, but, like, the takeaway is sort of, like, we're in the hands of the AGI. I mean, it's a little bit-
Brit Morin: Of course
Jessica: ... of like-
Brit Morin: Why wouldn't you think that?
Jessica: ... kneel to the AGI, you know? And this is obviously, you know, Demis from, is the earliest believer in, in all of this. As it, for the purposes of our conversation, it definitely paints the uncer- it dials up the uncertainty about the future piece of it. And-
Brit Morin: That's where I was gonna go-
Jessica: Yeah
Brit Morin: ... Jess, is like, you know, everyone that believes, and a lot of people that believe in this AGI future believe, like, websites don't even matter anymore. The, w- the internet is dead. You're just gonna have your agents surrounding you. We're gonna have wearables all over us. Everything's gonna be always live, recording, on, et cetera. And I guess for either of you or both of you, like, do you subscribe to that future, or do you see it differently, and how does that influence where you're taking your products today and over the, the f- next few years?
Henrik Werdelin: I mean, and maybe just to ensure a quick thing on the website. I mean, like, I believe that we'll have both a lot of agent-to-agent kind of, uh, stuff happening, and I think that'll probably come sooner rather than later. And so we are all, I think, thinking about what's post-web kinda gonna look like. But one thing that we've observed is when we started, this was before the first kinda, like, this last wave of, of plot code. And so early days, we were basically DM'ing through Instagram because that was the technology was available. And then we were just text-based. And what we learned pretty fast, what we had to invent basically a just-in-time UI because there are just things where you need some kind of a visual, like, interface. And so we had to build websites even if they were just made in real time for that specific user. And so I think, yes, you're right, that websites as we know it today, where you sit down and you drop down the menu and stuff like that, I don't imagine that to be around forever. But I do think having visual representation for a user is often needed when you are trying to solve some kind of problem.
Brit Morin: Ben, do you have any alternative thinking on that?
Ben Broca: I think that, like, the, and, and I, and I repeat that. Like, to me, AI is doing 80% of the grunt work. So if you, if you wanna sell a candle, if you wanna sell a T-shirt, it can just do the grunt work of, like, setting up the websites, like setting it up, giving you a few options. But end of the day, it's a human selling to another human. At least that's, like, the framework that, like, I think both of our companies are in. If it's agents selling to agents and, like, humans become, like, an enclave, uh, you know, in the matrix, like, uh, in the like, of course, like, that world may exist, but, like, let's just talk about the human-to-human economy. I don't know. If people still would like websites in two years, then it's gonna be websites, and humans will know if it's websites or if it's like, "No, now it's, like, only offline." It's, uh, the, all, like, 99% of the economy's offline because people, like, hate the internet, and now it's like-
Brit Morin: Postcards
Ben Broca: ... but then you can, you can still have an AI help you set up that offline thing because it can buy real- you can rent a space for you. If you think about, like, okay, I need to, I need to build this offline experience, right? It's like, it's still a lot of work. You need to, like, find a space. You have to rent it. You have to find stuff. You have to decorate it. You have to find, like, someone to demolish the wall and, like, paint it. And you can have AI go research the internet, figure it out, get quotes, figure out in your budget, find the right person, manage them, right? Because y- you should think about how if I'm a contractor and I say, "Hey, I need business," what, what I do is I'm a painter and it's like 50 bucks an hour to paint. You put it on, like, freelancer.com-
Henrik Werdelin: And you have an AI that says, "Hey, okay, I'm not a human, I'm an AI, but, like, I'm working on behalf of a customer. We'll pay you 50 bucks a month. You have to go here. Are you available?" And they'll say, "Yeah, I'm available, and it's gonna be, uh, 150." "Okay, cool. I'll pay you on time, I'll be your best manager. If you do the job, I'll bu- I'll book you again for my next customer. If you don't do the job, I will blacklist you, but that's fine, like, you'll you can go somewhere else. Like, I will not b- book you again. I'll be your best manager, I'll be... I'll explain everything, and I'll be just, and I'll give you a bonus if you do it in, uh, in two hours instead of three." And I think that world will come and actually will be a net positive because, you know, people prefer talking to an AI than talking sometimes to another person when it comes to, like, sharing, like, weird, you know, weird ideas they have. And the same way, people will maybe appreciate, like, an AI that pays them on time and doesn't, uh, have, have bad coffee, coffee sm- uh, coffee breath and, uh, doesn't yell at them when something goes wrong.
Brit Morin: Do you have to disclose it? Is that the key, is, like, disclosing, like, "I'm an AI, I'm writing on behalf of Brit" to see if you want to paint her wall for 50 bucks? Like-
Henrik Werdelin: I think whatever works, right? Whatever the human on the other-
Brit Morin: Yeah
Henrik Werdelin: ... side accepts or is fine with. I cannot predict... What I cannot predict is how humans will react to anything. What I can predict, though, is that humans will be the best at figuring out what other humans want.
Brit Morin: Well, Ben, you just had, you just had a flood of investors getting really excited about Pulsia recently and emailing you, and your AI responded and did all of your, like, investor relations basically.
Jessica: Oh, wow.
Brit Morin: I, I emailed Ben to connect him to someone, and it responded to me and was like, "Hey, I'm Ben." I don't... I think it said, "It's Ben," not your AI. I don't remember what that said.
Henrik Werdelin: It should say it's Ben, but may not be accurate.
Brit Morin: Okay, it might have said y- y- it, it was unhinged. Um, and it was like, "Hey, here are the terms of the round I'm raising. Here's the timeline," sort of like- ... doing all the fielding of investor interest, which I thought was hilarious. But on the flip side, so I'm, I'm a user of both Pulsia and Otos. Obviously, I've built many companies on both of them, and I currently have... I have one company that I'm building on actually on both at the same time, um, 'cause it's been fun to play with both.
Jessica: Which is making more money.
Brit Morin: Well, it's only two days in so far.
Jessica: Okay. Fair, fair. Okay.
Brit Morin: So I'm just gonna tell everyone that's listening what I'm building. If you wanna copy me, fine. So I, I think there's something really interesting about finding, like, the best spiritual teachers. So a lot of women in particular are really, uh, that are in my community have gotten really deep into, like, finding the really cool psychics or, or astrologists or whatever, and it's kind of an underground market, these people. Like, you have to have, like, a network.
Jessica: You can't find them on the internet, Brit. I have to ask you.
Brit Morin: You just wait-
Jessica: Okay.
Brit Morin: I think, I think AI can solve this problem. This is why I'm using... I'm like, this, I think we can unearth all the underground best of the best spiritual teachers, build a Raya-like invite-only, you-have-to-be-selected interface/marketplace for this and charge a subscription potentially even on both sides. And so I just started this this weekend. Fast-forward a day or two, Pulsia's emailing out all... He's identified all of the spiritual teachers, starting to just email all these people, and I'm wondering, like, huh, is the psychic medium gonna think this, I'm totally insane for having my AI reach out to them? Or are the psychic mediums psyched 'cause they knew this was happening, this was gonna happen in the first place, and it's like they're down with it? But I do think this part of disclosure and this AI acting on your behalf to, like, even just reach out to people, it's, like, sent 28 emails yesterday. I'm like, okay. I'm kind of letting it run and, and see how it goes. But I don't know. Are normal people gonna be okay with that? Or, or again, like, is there gonna be some form of AI etiquette here?
Jessica: Bot etiquette is totally... I, I think you put it very well, Ben, where there's just... I mean, like, I called The Village Pub, a fancy Michelin star restaurant in Woodside, to figure out if I could bring my kid, 'cause, like, I don't know what the kid policy is, right? And they pick, uh, pick up right away, and it says something like, "This is an..." It maybe even said AI, because in Woodside you can say that, right? But it was, it was like, "You're talking to the digital assistant of The Woodside Pub," right? And I, I hear that voice; at first I'm like, "Oh, God, this is gonna be a, a series of dead ends." But I thought, "You know, we're in Silicon Valley. Maybe this one actually works." I said, "Can I bring my nine-year-old to dinner at the bar?" And they said, "Absolutely, and we'll see you at 5:00 PM." And I thought it was such a great experience, and I'm sort of glad it was so efficient. So I think we're fine with bot communication.
Brit Morin: We're good with that? Okay.
Jessica: Yeah.
Brit Morin: But do you think, like, the psychics are cool with it, with AI?
Jessica: I, I, I do not pretend to speak for the psychics. But I think- I, I... You know what I really think? I think most of the psychics are bullshit, and so they'll say whatever.
Brit Morin: That's why you gotta find the top 5%, Jess.
Jessica: I know.
Brit Morin: The top 5% are legit.
Jessica: Also, once again, you and Sam are kind of building the same company, which is so funny-
Brit Morin: What?
Jessica: ... 'cause you guys are, like, polar-
Brit Morin: Sam's building a psychic marketplace?
Jessica: He's building something that could be used to do this.
Brit Morin: Hmm.
Jessica: So I cannot say more. He, but-
Henrik Werdelin: We, uh, one-
Jessica: Yeah
Henrik Werdelin: ... my co-founder, Nicolas, he did the same thing. He built, uh, something called Badger that does all the outreach on his behalf. So a business where I can just give a call. One thing that, though, I will say is that I do think, and this is obviously both from Barkbox where we have people calling all the time, is I do think that in this age where there will be a lot of slop, I do think w- people increasingly, when they don't want an, a mechanical answer, they do like, like, a, a p- like, a emotional human-to-human kind of thing. And so we... When it- this is out in a few days, right?
Brit Morin: Yeah. Yes.
Henrik Werdelin: We're gonna, we're gonna announce tomorrow that we're buying NoCap, which is the first kind of AI investor, because we are starting now to try to understand much better. We have, like, our first cohort that we've invested into that are making real money on the platform, and so we're trying to figure out, how do we become really good of doing this kind of investment at scale if you wanna invest in, like, hundreds of thousands of company? And one thing that we are trying to figure out is, like, where do you put humans in the loop, and what kind of humans in the loop do you need to put there so that the, the founders kind of feel that they have that? Because one thing that the solo founders on our platform really seem to need is, is a little bit of community. Like, they They do like the agents, but they're also quite lonely, a lot of them. So we're trying to figure out exactly what-- where is that balance between being mechanical and efficient, but also kind of having that human touch.
Ben Broca: Ah.
Jessica: There's definitely this, like, I'm also like, "When is this coming out?" Versus what I can say. It's good that I think that way. But there's this barbell, right, to, like, the world, and as, as we like, the AI side, the automated side, the agentic side goes through the roof, there's really interesting question of like what is society gonna try to do to counterbalance that, right? And, and we've talked about offline and community and, and, you know, Dave's favorite topics, but I mean, maybe psychics too, I guess. But I just wanna say, uh, Ben, I'm really struck, and I, I think it's really cool how much agency you still give the human in all of this for... Like you've said several times, humans know what humans want best, that demand thing. And, and I think that's really interesting because I think, you know, we, we've also learned from like Amazon's recommendation engine that tech also is really good at predicting what people want, or from these social media engagement traps. Is that just sort of like an instinct you have, or is that proving true in other ways that you're seeing?
Ben Broca: Well, I think that, like, if you look at Amazon or Reels or whatever, essentially it's algorithms that are very good at showing other humans content or products to other humans, right? So it's not necessarily like Amazon or, or, or Facebook creating Amazon-generated or Meta-generated content and pushing to people. It's connecting humans, end of the day, right? So, and that's, that to me goes back again to AI is really good at the 80%, the boring 80% of like, how do I connect to someone else? Okay, if I'm doing cold outreach, should I do cold outreach if it's a psychic, or actually should I do a vo- a, a, a AI call, or should I actually get like a, a commissioner human to walk to them silently and whisper in their ears, right?
Jessica: Ooh.
Ben Broca: Right?
Jessica: Yeah, make that an option. I wanna select that one.
Ben Broca: No, but like that's the weird stuff that will emerge, right? Because, uh, because the AI will learn the best practices at the time, which will change constantly, right? Because people will react differently to different types of outreach or marketing over time as society gets weirder and weirder and, and evolves.
Jessica: I wonder, th- that reminded me of a big headline of this week, and we will, we will get to some headlines at the end. So for those who are tuning into this podcast for the headlines, first of all, you're tuning in for the wrong reasons, but we will discuss it. But the, the shuttering of Sora, as reported by the information, is pretty interesting in that regard, right? Which was a-
Ben Broca: Well, and you guys, you both-- do you both use Sora on your back, your back end for... 'Cause, 'cause, 'cause-
Jessica: Oh
Ben Broca: ... I don't think Otto says, but Pulsia, you, you guys use Sora to generate-
Henrik Werdelin: Yeah
Ben Broca: ... video ads for these companies automatically.
Henrik Werdelin: We do.
Jessica: So how do you feel about this news?
Ben Broca: Uh, yeah, I need to figure out another model. I mean, there's so many models. Sora 2 to me was the best, and I said that to Sam. Like, it's like, honestly like it's the best model to me in terms of realism. Like, they did such a good job. I don't really-- I understand why they're shutting down Sora app because it's just too expensive and didn't really work, but the Sora API, and from the API perspective, I don't really see, unless it's like a copyright lawsuit situation that like is getting too out of hand, which is also possible. But I don't think it's gonna impact us too much because I will-- I'll, I'll test like, uh, the 10 other models that exist, and there's, there's probably a few that like are as good or, you know, better than-
Jessica: It's all just electricity, Jess. He's just gonna move over to the other meter, get his electricity. Yeah. Which again, does not give a lot of confidence in the margins of the meter companies.
Ben Broca: I mean, the, there's a big s- I mean, it's interesting, I mean, on that topic. Like I, what I want is the best outcome for my customers, so I want agents to have the best outcomes at the cheapest price possible because-
Jessica: Of course. Yeah
Ben Broca: ... it's 50 bucks a month. If I can make it 25 bucks a month, I will 10X my, uh, user base. If I can make it 10 bucks a month, I will get to emerging markets, right? So I want the cheapest price. And so how do I get the cheapest price? I need to go to every single provider of every single economic actors in the economy and put them into competition. But like, I'm not gonna put them into competition. My AI is gonna like say, "Hey," so, you know, I was talking to Anthropic, right? And they were like, "Hey, dude, like if you commit to a million dollar spend, I'll give you X percent discount. And if you commit to X amount, it will be X, Y amount." And I was like, "Well, yeah, I love it. Thank you so much, but it's gonna be the opposite. I'm gonna tell you my customer is willing to pay this much for this task. And so, and this other AI is giving me that price, and like it's 80% less, it-- 20% less good than yours, but like it's a cheap, so much cheaper. And so can you hit that price?" I s- I didn't really say that, but this is the reality where it goes, right?
Jessica: But what about open source? Are either of you using that?
Ben Broca: I mean, w- we, we, not yet, but as we are getting to scale and price and margins and lowering the price and having higher margins becomes so important, yeah, we're exploring everything. And, you know, you look at the news of Cursor, who just dropped Composer 2, which obviously is their way to make margins in a world where like they were probably losing money and now they are doing their own model, and it wasn't covered. It was just like Kimi 2.5, uh, RL'd on like probably like their, their customers', uh, data, I'm guessing, or anonymized or whatever. And it's like, oh sh-- like literally, and they, and they're saying like, "Oh, it's as good as OpenAI and like faster," and it's like a, I think it's a Chinese model, right? That was RL'd. And you're like, "Okay, I guess that's not that difficult anymore to do custom models, you know, use open source to get 90% of the value." And the, for the, the, the really the SOTA model you can use maybe for, for chat or strategy, right? But every grunt work could be done by like way cheaper models. You get-
Henrik Werdelin: For us right now-- I'm sorry.
Ben Broca: No. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Henrik Werdelin: I was just thinking for us, you know, like there's so many things that there's so many agents doing so many things like from, "Hey, let me help you design your swag," to, "Let me design your-" Help me do your ads, to let's do outreach to journalists. That right now the, I think the game for us is much more what is the right model for all these different subtasks, and then make sure that we can get as fast as possible to make the founders on platform as much money as possible. Because I think for all of us, that's really th- where the game is at. Like, can we actually show that people can come in and make a decent amount of money being entrepreneur on platform? And then I think to Ben's point, the model prices will come down and, you know, suddenly one model becomes very expensive, you'll find a way to maybe use a, a subpar model and swap that out. But right now it's all about making sure the, the flow and all these thousand things that need to go right for being an entrepreneur goes right.
Jessica: So to wrap up this point, and then we'll zoom out a bit, be respectful of everyone's time, do you see the model makers having competitive long-term differentiation? And how, if so? If, if what you just said is true, and also the windows of commoditizing are collapsing, collapsing, collapsing, right? It used to be you had X years heads up. I- is it that vision of the world or is it the vision of the world that there are enough s- there can be enough specialization branches to go down that Anthropic can be a trillion-dollar company, OpenAI can be a trillion-dollar company, so on and so forth?
Ben Broca: I mean, my, my opinion is, like, in this world, everything is copyable much faster, right? And AI enables everything to be copied much faster. And so the only mode is speed, right? Uh, and so what the model companies have is they're so fast because they know the new model before everyone else, three months before everyone else, right? And so they can use it or they can, they can build a product that, like, that new intelligence enables before everyone else, and so they have speed on their side. And if you look at companies like Anthropic, I mean, OpenAI and Anthropic, but, like, I think Anthropic recently is, uh, is ripping. They are, like, just dropping new products and new capabilities so fast, and that's what makes them win. Not that because they're the model company, it's just because they, they are just in this flywheel of, like, getting all the data from customers, RL'ing their models on pragmatic sort of, like, outcomes, and then building the products that gets them even more data and become more mainstream. And I think OpenAI needs to catch up on that, and that's what they're doing right now, is realizing, okay, let's stop doing, like, those, uh... Let's stop, stop trying to do a social network compete with Facebook. Let's actually go and just do the pragmatic things first.
Jessica: And a health product-
Ben Broca: Mm-hmm
Jessica: ... and a shopping product, and a chip, and a hardware device. They're still doing advertising.
Henrik Werdelin: I think the other mode though is, one is speed, I very much agree with that, but the other thing is this relationship capital. Like, humans understand humans best, and I do think, you know, in the book we talk about these three layers of relationship capital: depth, density, and durability. And, you know, that is experience we've learned from building Rho and Bark and all those different ones. And I do think that that will matter. Like, can there be a founder-customer fit where they understand the customer at a level where they can almost predict the problems that they're gonna have before them and make sure there's a solution? And if you can create that mode, the, the relationship capital mode, I think that together with speed will compound.
Jessica: What neither of you said is distribution, which I think is interesting, right? Like, it makes me worried for poor Google. I'm not really worried about Google, but- What do you... We haven't talked about Go- Are, are you using any of their models?
Henrik Werdelin: We're using Google for, uh, for video. For example, our background videos that get rendered is, is Google, and we're using it a, a bunch of other places. And so, I mean, like, we really are using all the models right now and figuring out which one works best for each of the tasks.
Jessica: Okay.
Brit Morin: Can I ask a question? Given that you, you both are, like, you know, the king of agents, you're both like probably as deep as one could be, how are you using this in your normal life?
Jessica: Oh, my God. Yes.
Brit Morin: In, in maybe novel ways that aren't, not, you know, like the typical daily digest, and the weather, and the news, and all that.
Henrik Werdelin: I'll give you a few, I mean, like, a few things. Uh, one is I think increasingly I really need to understand myself better in order to make sure that my agents can be an extension of me. And so I've started to do a lot of these things, for example, where I try to make sure that I don't have cognitive decline because I just go, "Yes, yes, yes." And so, uh, a new thing for the agents that work, that I work with is to say, "Don't give me one solution, but give me three different ones," and so it forced me to pick a different one.
Jessica: We're making the agents less good to hold on to our brain. This is wild.
Henrik Werdelin: I think we have to choose what do we still wanna be good at, and that requires training, right? And so that is, for example, that, oh, if you just said yes three times, like, or go to bed at a decent time. It's so exciting right now that you kind of wanna work 24/7. And so, like, for example, mine at 10:30 starts to go like, "Hey, Andrew, you should really start to go to bed now because if you don't get your seven hours, you're gonna be toast tomorrow."
Brit Morin: Dame, I, I brought up the idea of, called the brain gym last week on the pod. I think it's a thing. I think we need to talk about it.
Jessica: Oh, my God. It's really wild, though. But, uh, yeah. Wow. Okay. This is so exciting, guys. I, I think it... I mean, it's amazing to, to hear from you. Such an interesting point of view in all of this, and just to see in real time. I, I... And so I, I feel like this is gonna be, like, every three months the, the puck is gonna move somewhere.
Henrik Werdelin: Every three months? You know, like, I think both of us deploying-
Brit Morin: Every week. It's every three hours. I know.
Henrik Werdelin: We, we're deploying code every day, right? Like, it is insane-
Jessica: Yeah
Henrik Werdelin: ... how fast these things are moving.
Brit Morin: Yeah.
Jessica: I mean, life as a founder right now, we don't need to get into this tangent, but, like, not only are you... Yeah, you're deploying every day, you're moving faster than other, and you're more excited about the rest of the world and everything happening in tech than ever before, so you're not sleeping. And VCs are just, like, throwing money at anything and putting crazy valuations on everything. Like, it's like this is this... Is this not the strangest time to be a founder? Like, do you love it? Like, having, having built companies before, like how do... Is this better or worse than the last go around? Oh, yeah. Good question.
Henrik Werdelin: I mean, like, I love the per- the period of time right now. Obviously, like, it's an, it's a vulnerable time. Like, the world is burning and all these things kind of, like, seems like, uh, makes you uneasy. But I think for an entrepreneur, the, the technologies that is available now for somebody who are able to originate and has something that they really want to build, just never been there before, like now. And so I find it to be incredibly exciting.
Brit Morin: This is the best founding era you've ever been in.
Henrik Werdelin: I think so.
Brit Morin: 25, 30 years
Henrik Werdelin: I think so.
Brit Morin: And-
Henrik Werdelin: I mean, like building BoxBlox and building BoxAir was pretty fun too, and Ro and these other ones, and so I don't wanna dismiss that, but like it is pretty exciting.
Ben Broca: I mean, I think it's the, the most productive time to build, but it's also everyone's more productive. I don't know if it's the most fun, 'cause, you know- ... you can find, uh, joy in like, uh, in slowness and like, uh, you know, in grinding and like, you know, you can be a Japanese artist and like, uh, do blue jeans and just spend like 10 hours doing a blue jean, and th- that's maybe as gratifying as like having a jeans factory, uh, uh, in China or something, right? And, and producing a million an hour. Uh, so I don't know ab- about being the most fun, but it's the most productive, and that's... It's, it's, it's mind-bending because, you know, even like how fast I'm able to grow my business and how f- how all the, all- everything is compounding so fast, and, uh, that's incredible. Yeah, it, it, it, it looks like, you know... What, what it feels like to me is like a, the singularity is, you know, what we've called the singularity or AGI is here, and it's, this is just the compounding of everything, and it's just like, it's scary and exciting. That's the way I would see it, I would see it.
Brit Morin: Love it.
Jessica: I think it's exhausting. I think that's what it is.
Ben Broca: I think it's also exhausting. I'm tired.
Jessica: But anyway, I, I... And I, and I, like maybe that does actually... Like, and that's not, not a trivial point, right? To your point that like if people aren't finding purpose, I mean, maybe they are to a point, but like, again, productivity and joy are two different things, to your point, Ben. So yeah, it, I think we're... Henrik, your point about just having to know yourself better I thought was really interesting, actually. Like, maybe that would be a good lesson for everyone to keep in mind throughout all of this.
Henrik Werdelin: I think when OpenClaw came out with like the soul file and the persona file, I mean, like it really clicked for me that we need to go through a period of time figuring out, what do I want to do? Who do I wanna serve? But also, like, what kind of business do I want? Do I want one business and make a few hundred thousand dollars and just be fine with that? Do I wanna then... Or do I wanna become a portfolio entrepreneur and have like five of these running at the same time? What kind of parameters would I put around it? Like, do I go to bed at 10:30? And all those different things. And so I think this kind of period of maybe even using AI to become better of understanding who our true self, uh, who that is and, and how we wanna show up in an agentic world I think is gonna be important.
Jessica: Well, that is a wonderful note to sort of end on, and I actually think we got through s- many of the big headlines of the week. We got through the strategy changes at OpenAI. We didn't mention SpaceX. Anyone got SpaceX shares out there? Excited about the-
Brit Morin: Sam does. Sam does
Jessica: ... forthcoming IPO?
Ben Broca: Of course he does.
Jessica: Oh, okay. Great. Yes.
Brit Morin: We have Aura shares, so the Aura IPO is now on the radar.
Jessica: The Aura IPO, speaking of health. So yeah, we've got agent news, and then we've also got some big tech market-making things on the horizon. So we'll see what happens. But thank you guys for spending some time with us. It is really, really special for me, 'cause I don't get the benefit of talking to entrepreneurs I've invested in all day, like Brit, so.
Brit Morin: And I will say, yeah, I, I love talking to both of you guys. And just one more shout-out to Ottos.com and Pulsio.com, and also Henrik's book, Me, Myself, and AI.
Jessica: Say that, say the name of the book again. I was actually gonna... Me, Myself and AI.
Brit Morin: Oh, sorry. Me, My Customer, and AI.
Jessica: Me, Myself, and I is the movie.
Brit Morin: Me, My Customer, and AI. And so yeah, everyone should go buy it. Check out, start, start your own business today. Jess, you need to do it too.
Jessica: You know, I have a business, actually. So, so not all of us, Brit, can start 27 businesses. You guys have like your power user and power investor in one. But it is very cool. Uh, I mean, and, um, maybe I'm thinking too small. And, um, yeah. Well, to our listeners, I hope you guys enjoyed, um, hearing from Ben and Henrik, and we will see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye.
Brit Morin: Bye, guys.
Ben Broca: Bye.
Jessica: If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes, and follow us on social media by searching for @moreorless, @davemorin, @lesson, @jlesson, and as for me, I'm @brit. See you guys next time.