#149 — SpaceX IPO Date Talk + OpenAI Confidential Filing Rumors
May 22, 2026 · Listen · All episodes · Chat with the show's AI
Jessica Lessin, Dave Morin, Brit Morin and Sam Lessin debate the tech of the week.
Full transcript (AI-generated — may contain transcription errors):
Sam Lessin: People hate AI. Since we're talking about the public markets, I think these companies waited extremely too long to go public. If you were advising your friends back home to choose between Anthropic or SpaceX this year, which one would you do? Would you buy a portfolio or would you just buy SpaceX?
Jessica: I might buy Anthropic.
Dave Morin: I was gonna say I would buy SpaceX.
Sam Lessin: I'd buy SpaceX.
Jessica: Over Anthropic?
Dave Morin: Space just seems more infinite.
Sam Lessin: If you're like an average person, it's like an emotional hedge to invest in Anthropic. It's like, "I'm really mad about this, and it's probably gonna take my job." If you lose $1,000 on it, but it might not take your job, you might actually be happier. It's like a six-seven. It's a six-seven.
Brit Morin: More or less. Is it no or is it yes? We'll debate the test that's best. Will we get more or less? Dave and Brit + Sam and Jess put it all right to the test. More or less.
Jessica: Well, hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less. We can't find Sam.
Sam Lessin: Hey, Jess.
Jessica: We can't find him.
Sam Lessin: Surprise, surprise.
Jessica: But we know he is going to make an appearance any minute, but I was too excited for this episode to wait a second longer, so we had to start.
Dave Morin: It's nice. We can get a few words in ourselves before Sam joins.
Jessica: I have so many topics to cover today with you all, as I'm sure you do as well.
Sam Lessin: And Dell World Week. I have to talk about it.
Dave Morin: Oh.
Jessica: I know, but it doesn't work with my-
Dave Morin: Ah.
Jessica: Doesn't work with my... Oh, Sam.
Sam Lessin: Hi, guys.
Jessica: Brit said she has got to get a few words in. But anyway, I was saying how excited I am for the IO/IPO week, plus Dell World.
Dave Morin: Yes. There's so much happening in tech. Everyone's trying to do the summer scramble, so to get, like, all the news out before June, I think, is, is the goal.
Sam Lessin: Yeah, 'cause then we're all going on vacation.
Dave Morin: I don't know. I hope so, but that's not happening.
Jessica: Well, and also, we have SpaceX IPO, S1 is out, confirming numbers previously reported by The Information. June 12th, guys, is the rough date for lift off.
Sam Lessin: What's June 12th plus 180 days? That's what I'm marking my calendar for.
Jessica: Oh, they don't, haven't set the lock-up period yet, so we don't know.
Dave Morin: It's basically the end of the year. End of December is when all the housing prices go up.
Sam Lessin: Nah. Efficient market hypothesis says it's already happening.
Jessica: Breaking news from The Information and other outlets is that OpenAI confidentially filing soon. The Wall Street Journal says as soon as, uh, this week. We... I cannot confirm or deny that timing.
Dave Morin: Question, did we wait for the Elon/Altman trial to be closed before they announced the IPO filing?
Sam Lessin: No, they had to.
Jessica: I think they had to. This also is not an announcement, it's the next toe in the water. W- we're gonna circle back to this, because we have a lot. And I just think Anthropic must... Which is, by the way, closing another round as we speak, must be in the mix, but everyone is feeling good. Um, how are you guys feeling, more? And then I'm sorry about your untimely loss after one day of your fish, Brit, because...
Sam Lessin: Oh, God. Brit, what hap- Did you just not listen to the thing where you massage the tank?
Dave Morin: Massage?
Sam Lessin: Brit didn't follow any of the rules.
Dave Morin: Uh, that's not true.
Sam Lessin: It takes like three weeks to get the tank ready.
Jessica: Okay, let your wife explain her epic fail.
Dave Morin: So our son really wanted fish. We were like, "Fine." We went to the fish store. We found these really cool fish called Tetra GloFish. They actually use genetics from jellyfish, and when UV light is on them, they glow neon colors. And I was like, "Okay, I'm in. Now I'm a fish person, 'cause this is, like, scientifically cool." So we pick out three fish. We name the fish. First we set up the tank. We do what the man said. We set up the tank. We put the water in. We put the pH drops whatever in. We let it sit. Then the next day we get the fish, we bring them home. We transfer them-
Jessica: It's been like three weeks.
Dave Morin: What? No one told me this. So we transfer them in, they're swimming around. We think it's great. I put my son to bed, wake up the next morning, the fish aren't moving. They're at the bottom of the tank, and their eyeballs are, like, staring at me, and I'm like, "Great." And now I have to not only tell him they're dead, but, like, it's the first thing I have to tell him when he wakes up, 'cause I know he's gonna run straight to the tank. So we had a fish burial down the toilet, and we failed, but we're gonna do it again. A lot of the internet has told me now what to do right, and, you know, we don't give up.
Jessica: Guys, I have a woman for you. I think her name is Kate. She comes to your house and solves this for you. It turns out- ... that taking care of fish-
Dave Morin: There's like Uber for fish caretakers?
Sam Lessin: It's hard. It's, it's like a real microbiome. There's a whole microbiome of the tank thing you've gotta get right. This is the future of the economy, is people that take care of fish.
Jessica: Let's start... Well, Dave, I was bothering you, as I'm want to do, with something I needed to ask you, and you were like, "I just got off the stage giving a keynote at Dell World." A, what is Dell World, and B, what was your keynote?
Sam Lessin: Well, also, before Dave gets into it, I just wanna note, you posted on Facebook about this.
Dave Morin: I did?
Sam Lessin: Y- or Instagram became Facebook. It's like Dave Moore, who doesn't use social media, liked this enough that I got the, "A friend of yours who hasn't posted in a long time is active," and it's like, ah, Dave has been brought back to social media.
Jessica: I like how Sam is more interested in calling you a hypocrite than understanding why you're giving a keynote to 10,000 people, which seems really cool. So...
Sam Lessin: I, I know why.
Dave Morin: Well, I came back to Instagram after Stagecoach because I've, I wanted to get my favorite country artists in my, back in my life. And so, yeah, I went to Dell World. Michael Dell asked me to come speak about OpenClaw. I didn't realize how big Dell World is. I mean, there were 10,000 people in the auditorium. They bring together, I guess similar to NVIDIA's DGC Conference, it's, uh, largely enterprise-focused, largely focused on hyperscalers, people building big data centers. Um, I didn't know this, but, you know, Dell actually was the primary, uh, builder of the Colossus superclusters for xAI. They're doing a lot of the big, uh, supercluster building. And, uh, they've also got some really great desktop-grade AI computers. I've got a AI computer on my desk now that can run a 30 billion parameter model locally, tokens for free. It's pretty great. They've also got a desktop that can do a t- One trillion parameter model, which is pretty amazing. We had it on stage with us. So kinda talking about the future of personal AI and inference on the edge, like, which I've talked about on this pod a lot, that's what I talked about on stage.
Sam Lessin: This is funny. If you click on... If you go s- Google "Dell AI computer," the sponsored result is Dell next gen AI PCs, but then it just links you to dell.com/qualcomm. So it's like, and or like the... So it's like, oh, these are... So, like, that's, that's interesting. They're clearly marketing this, but then Qualcomm?
Dave Morin: Yeah, it's called the Dell Pro Max, if you just look at the Dell Pro Max, and it's similar to the DGX Spark on the low end, and then the high end you have a NVIDIA 3800 in a desktop chassis. Pretty cool technology. It's actually, uh... They had to create a liquid cooling system in order to make it work under the desk, and so it's, like, actually pretty interesting cooling technology.
Sam Lessin: Ah, so HVAC is the future.
Dave Morin: Yeah, so got to do that. It was great. Had a, you know, beautiful time at The Venetian, and the Dell team was great, and, uh, you know, really delighted to do it. And, um, I haven't been on a stage that big in a long time, so it was quite fun.
Jessica: We know. D- we've... And we ta- We don't have to revisit the AI hardware theme that we talked about last week.
Dave Morin: Well, you know, the one thing I will say, Jess, to some of our conversations over the last several pods, the big topic at Dell World was tokenomics and how to think about token spend. Are you going to keep putting the... You know, my favorite analogy that I heard was, uh, in the early days of the '80s and '90s, uh, you could go to a arcade and play video games in an arcade, and you had to keep putting quarters into the machine, and this is kind of like what everybody's doing when with Anthropic right now. You've gotta pay Anthropic quarters to get the tokens out.
Sam Lessin: The Pinball Wizards.
Dave Morin: Yeah. And then when Nintendo came along and put compute into people's houses, you could play, you know, as many games of Super Mario as you want at your own house. Enterprises and people are having to make decisions like, do you want to pay for the compute upfront, get as many token runs out of it as possible, or do you wanna keep putting the quarters into the, uh, Anthropic or OpenAI machine?
Sam Lessin: It's just the sa- the size and shape of where all the matrix multiplying is done, right? Like, if it ends up being, like, the Apple story is gonna be it's all in the little handsets and c- consumers pay upfront for the token genera- the token multiplying machines, and then maybe the spare cycles get resold. The desktop vision will be the same, like SETI @ home style, right? Like, everyone's got their HVAC cooling plus matrix multiplying machines under their desk, and maybe you resell them back. The cloud version is no, it's all fucking centralized.
Dave Morin: Well, but Sam, I, I'll push back and say at the enterprise level, and I learned this a lot this week, y- you're actually making the same decision. Are you going to rent it from, uh, Anthropic and OpenAI, or are you going to build it on-prem and make that investment upfront?
Sam Lessin: And the, the... And a lot of it's gonna come down to, like, from the on-pre versus, which is a whole Linux story and whatever, which is like, look, if you're OpenAI or Anthropic, you would rather own all of it centrally as an asset, right, if you can get the f- cheap financing to do it, and then effectively mark it all up and sell it on out, right? There's just, like, more control that way for you. But if you're a company, right, and you can finance it and everything else kind of lines up the same, you'd rather rest control. So there's gonna be this big control. The only reason that companies will do the centralized thing long term is if the models are sufficiently better that they have to, I think.
Dave Morin: No, I think there's also a security consideration. People want to put the compute as close to the data as possible for certain use cases. You know, they, they may not want it going off-prem for a myriad of reasons.
Sam Lessin: Yeah. But I... Obviously, there's lots of reasons to not want it off-prem. I'm saying the only reason you're forced off-prem is if the giga brain can do something you can't do by ma- multiplying your own matrices, right? 'Cause it's closed source or whatever it ends up being. So it'll be this interesting global tension, which then leads to my thing, which is I, I... It dawned on me recently that, like... So Jess, you'll know this. Like, the Hyperion thing Facebook's building, the $200 billion spend, is that the up-
Jessica: Yeah
Sam Lessin: ... the upshot?
Dave Morin: It's ridiculous.
Sam Lessin: That's, that's insane. That's a huge national security problem. Like, talk about decentralized versus centralized compute. If we're like, where else do you put $200 billion of capital in, like, one place, right? That's, like, 10 battle- that's 10 aircraft carriers. And so this is interesting. Like, I'm very curious how the security, because the other thing that's gonna be really interesting on the security, that's insane, right? It's like that's literally like taking 10, 10 aircraft carriers, lining them all up, sticking them in one place in, like, one center. That seems like a huge security problem. Like, what, what type of missile defense are these things gonna have?
Dave Morin: Good question.
Jessica: Okay, so missile defensive data centers, on-prem versus cloud. Let, let's keep on the developer conference thing and talk about Google I/O. Anyone make it to I/O? This is Google's annual-
Guest: Didn't make it, but I watched the full keynote, followed along. Actually watched it with our 11-year-old, Ansel. I know there are some Google haters out there, and I know I'm a former employee. However, I think this was a really important event for Google because, A, they touted some interesting numbers. For instance, I think they said they have over 900 million active users using Gemini. They also... Like, their advertising revenues are continue to skyrocket because of AI. They did 77 billion just in one quarter, which is up, like, 16% year over year. When you look at it in the competitive landscape, you're like, "Whoa, Google's actually, like, right on the heels of Anthropic and GPT." And by the way, their distribution continues to be massive with Chrome and YouTube and Gmail and everything else. And so what they did yesterday I think was really fundamental to getting up to par and starting to get ahead. So they launched things, definitely a bunch of new models. Um, they launched what's called Gemini Spark, which is a 24/7 personal agent. Obviously, everyone's starting to do this now. They launched Android Glasses, starting to compete with Meta Glasses. But the thing I was also... The two things I actually really loved, w- one, universal cart. I think this is huge.
Dave Morin: You've already lost me. Too many things, not clear message. I have no idea what's going on or what was good.
Jessica: Honest Steve. Who likes honest Steve?
Guest: Let's get up to par with what everyone else has. Fine
Dave Morin: Not even up to par. The most re- the model's not even competitive.
Guest: What's not competitive about it?
Dave Morin: It's not competitive. Like, it's just less good than every conceivable benchmark, it's less good than 5.5 and, uh, 4.7. Like, meaningful. Like, you wouldn't use it.
Jessica: Brit, and your point about universal search, and then-
Guest: All right. Universal cart. This is a big deal, I think. So they- Google is launching Universal Cart. They have a ton of partners, including, like, Shopify, and every major commerce player you can imagine, Stripe, et cetera, where there's a universal cart now across the web. This is important for agents, but also Google's owning the backend of this. So I think this is, like, their ads business reborn for the future of agentic shopping that I would pay attention to if I were you. And then they also had some really cool generative UI examples where, you know, search is basically becoming the front end of Gemini, which sucks for anyone who relied on SEO. But now if you're like, "What should I do this weekend with my family?" It'll start literally, like, generating a UI of, like, your plans and all the events you can look at. They use Google Maps integration. They use all kind- your Gmail to understand context about your family, calendars. Everything's, like, automated and integrated, and it looks really cool, not just like a chatbot. So I don't know. I give Google props.
Dave Morin: I find it confusing to read the, the launches by Google. It's, it's very diffi- I mean, maybe that's the point, is that they're launching stuff across their entire surface. They've got a billion users. Uh, AI's integrated into everything. There's not really supposed to be one way to understand it all. It's just supposed to be everywhere. I was expecting their model progress to be more aggressive than it was. If I'm understanding it correctly from the reading the subtext of everything, DeepMind has opinions about that LLMs just simply aren't gonna get us there. The way that Google appears to have bet is that world models and other new style types of models are the way to go with research. They're probably right, actually, so maybe it's a good signal that they're not plunging all of their resources into trying to compete at the frontier of LLMs. Maybe that's actually wise, and we should look to them for real innovation rather than just another horse in the LLM race to the CapEx, CapTa- CapEx to the moon. But I was kind of surprised that there wasn't more progress there. And, um, they did launch some agentic stuff, but it looked like a hobby to me. It didn't look like it was that important in the grand schemes of stuff that they're talking about, which is also, again, maybe that's good. There's plenty of people working on that, and we don't need that from Google. But anyway, I don't know. Those are some initial thoughts that I noticed.
Jessica: I'm somewhere in between, but with you. I mean, I think this was Google showing us that its AI playbook is a Google playbook. And remember, there were people, including Google shareholders, who have eaten their words, who thought ChatGPT would kill Google, and it hasn't. Search is growing. And Google's AI playbook has been obviously to use its distribution which by the way-
Dave Morin: Mm
Jessica: ... is the most iconic interface in the history of the world, that is the Google search bar.
Dave Morin: To be fair, you're right. Most people experience AI through Google stuff.
Jessica: And so I think Google w- you know, a gr- like 18 months ago, would Google cannibalize search, blah, blah, blah. They're just cramming agents into that thing. So this is a dramatic overhaul to the search box, shifting it. Brit, you nailed it. I mean, I instantly went to my publishers group chat, editors of newspapers group chat, I'm like, "What does everyone think about the Google search going agentic?" Like, this is the nail in the coffin of SEO. Like, you're, you're completely right.
Guest: They should have known this was the direction all along.
Jessica: They were surprisingly not. So I thought that was interesting. And then, yeah, Dave, I thought the other stuff was a little bit... There was a lot in it. What keynotes pack in a lot 'cause they're also every chance's team to show off what they're working on. And part of what Google is doing is like hear a lot from OpenAI and Anthropic, but don't forget about us. So I think you felt a little bit of that. I gotta say, I was inspired to try something that did not work well. So I was inspired, not actually use anything that was announced, but to, like, dip back in to what AI capabilities I can add for our company and Google Workspace by, like, add-ons to Google Docs, and I had a really, really tough time. But I think when we talk about AI revolutionizing coding and all this kind of stuff, we also have to talk about the mind-numbing hours that non-technical people, like myself, are spending cutting and pasting and re-pasting and reconnecting-
Dave Morin: Yuck. Yep.
Jessica: And being told that, "Oh, wait, I actually gave you the wrong thing. Just kidding," over and over again. And I know I'm a complete novice, but I... Like, my children were essentially late to school today because I refused to get my butt out of my seat until I solved this, and I still have not solved this. So for all of you people who aren't Sam, Brit, and Dave, who, whose lives are being run by five agents in this agentic future, I see you, and it's really damn frustrating.
Dave Morin: I mean, for what it's worth, Jess, you're right. This is, I think, one of Google's biggest challenges, is that they have too much interface, especially on top of all their Google GCP cloud stuff. Extremely difficult.
Jessica: They wanted me in GCP, then they wanted me in App Store, and then they wanted me in Gemini, and then they wanted me in Studio, and I added credit cards. Gemini tells you in the friendliest voice that you're almost there, and I just wasn't. And I, I do have this experience using Claude as well, so this is not unique to Gemini. This one was just really bad. I think we have to, like... Is AI taking over the world? Yes, in some respects. But this is like the ground truth of what it takes, and I was highly motivated, and I still could not get an AI copyediting spellcheck thing into a template article doc.
Dave Morin: I actually think it's not taking over the world for this reason. The user experience is light years away from being easy enough for anybody that doesn't understand at a deeply technical level what's going on. And I think that's why you see only single-digit millions people using things like Claude Code and Codex and, you know, the most advanced agent tools because they're just impossible for, uh, people that aren't technical to use, and that's the biggest problem in the entire industry right now is that we're not putting enough time into design and user experience and, like, simplifying how to use this stuff, and Google's definitely, uh, one of the worst offenders. Like, it's just too hard to use all of this interface to figure it out.
Jessica: But again, the power that they have is like, "I don't want to do this in something else because my company runs on Workspace." And so if I'm gonna build any of these sort of assistants into our workflows, I'm gonna do it in Google. I'm gonna try using a different code generator and seeing if it will make the code from Google because I don't know, like, what's wrong. But it's infuriating. So that's my AI from the trenches. Pull my hair out.
Sam Lessin: Can I just make two comments on this that I think are both interes- One is, like, it is interesting. Like, I think the interesting juxtaposition is the number one winning company right now in AI, I think, is Anthropic, and they're actually shockingly focused, right? Like, it's Claude Code. Very pure play. I understand they do consulting and all that other stuff, but fundamentally it's, like, a very monolithic-y focus it feels like. Google, on the other hand, is in the phase that ChatGPT or OpenAI was in before of like l- ev- it feels like a lot of things, right? And so from a narrative focus perspective, that makes sense to focus. And, like, for what it's worth, I actually think that is where there's so much leverage in AI is, I mean, it's amazing just building what you want. Like, I'm s- I'm having an absolute blast with what I do with it. But to Jess's point, the thing I don't have is a team. Well, we kind of have a team. It's slow. It's very small. M- But, like, even the tools I've built for myself, can I have them? Like, ooh, no. Like, I don't have a way to give them to you, and, like, there's no way for me to collaboratively use them with you. So for the business cases Jess is talking about, it's gonna fit in the G Suite, the, the permissioning's gonna work, the tools that you're gonna, like, permission a doc with da, da, da, da. And so it's a really interesting moment where, like, all the people who can code or know how to build things are, like, freaking out about how good the coding is, and it is, right? But then, like, translating that into enterprise, it'll be really interesting when you get into the permissions and privacy and all those types of factors who really wins out in the infrastructure of all of this stuff.
Guest: The only thing I'll s- I'll combat you on there, Sam, yes, Google's doing a lot, but they have substantially more people to- that work for Google to do it with. Like, Claude and OpenAI, they have single-digit thousands.
Dave Morin: I don't think that matters.
Guest: I think it matters.
Dave Morin: It doesn't. Organizational inertia is a negative, I think.
Guest: I think the fact that they have five products with more than three billion users that they can start implementing AI into, and even if it takes them longer to string it all together and unify the UI and the user experience across these things, they have the people to build all of that. And so I, I feel like they're going broad, and they won't go as fast, but over time they will converge to be the best interface, um, out of, out of at least the ones that do as much as they do.
Jessica: I mean, I wanna sh- 'cause I think this is really relevant to Anthropic and OpenAI, which, I'm sorry, dear listener, we need to spend some time on this week because what's clear is that OpenAI is trying to move up its IPO timetable. Anthropic, which had really been ahead of some of the preparations but has been finalizing a major private round, it's still a little bit unclear, but you have to kind of believe that they're close by. And to me, you cannot deny the incredible revenue growth of these companies, and I think if they are confident to be moving up their timetables now, it's partially in response to the positive sentiment building around SpaceX, which could be overzealous or not. We'll, we'll know in a few weeks. But their businesses have to also be ripping because OpenAI would not have moved up their timeframe if their financials, which are instantly leaked, lag behind Anthropic's significantly, and we know that Anthropic's, because Dario said this at conferences, are, are s- continuing to see this exponential growth. So you have these two AI companies that in really short order are gonna be trying to convince public investors they're worth more than a trillion dollars, and they're gonna have extraordinary revenue growth to back that up. And to me, it's like to be bearish on these companies, you basically just have to say that this is not, not... Y- you have to acknowledge that they are winners in this paradigm. You have to basically question whether this is gonna be the prevailing, like, paradigm for how AI's gonna be deployed, right? Or whether Google will ch- erode it somehow with its consumer distribution or different models, local open source will take over. But I'm curious how you guys think about Anthropic, OpenAI, one trillion. Makes sense? Doesn't make sense? What do you have to believe or not believe? Because basically the convincing is gonna start next week pretty much.
Sam Lessin: I think all you have to believe is that number go up. This, we're so past fundamentals.
Dave Morin: Yeah, but I, I think you do have to do a little bit of analysis, Sam. Like, how do you unpack... Like, revenue number large, but there are real nuances around how large number gets.
Sam Lessin: My bet is that the people who have done the most recent fundraising rounds, the late-stage funds, are doing five seconds of analysis and just work who's done access. Like, I don't think anyone's doing any analysis. They're just number go up. By the way, then you get research reports being, "We're gonna do 15 quadrillion tokens and by this year..." By the way, they're probably right. I mean, I'd, I'd love to see the growth curve in electricity or whatever, but then the question is all margin, how good a business is it. I just don't think any of that matters. I think the reality is, is, like, the cynical but realistic world is These things go public at huge number. I think people will sell less than they, than people think they will because it's kinda like you're on the train. Getting off the train is a pretty dramatic move when you have to pay 50% taxes if you're, unless you're a tax-free entity. So it might be a little bit of rebalancing, but I think it'll be less. I think people will stay in these things, which means the float and available shares will probably stay lower than people realize. And then all you need to believe is marginal buyer, right, for a while. It doesn't matter what number go out, right, at, right, for any of these things. It's literally just no analysis. This will be bigger in the future than it is today, and you'd be crazy to get off the train, will be kind of the pitch on them.
Dave Morin: I would only add one other thing, which is what rate does big revenue number go up? Is there some kind of a, a point at which the, uh, circular economy going on around these tokens, you know, slows down, right? Like you've got a situation going on now where Anthropic is sucking up all of the venture capital dollars being spent on tokens in the entire ecosystem, and their revenue growth rate is enormous, but they are providing little to no downstream value, right? I saw this, uh, you know, somebody tweeted yesterday or the day before that a platform is only a platform if the revenue being produced by the products being built on top of it is more than the revenue that the platform's generating.
Sam Lessin: Ah, was that, was that the Chamath retweet?
Dave Morin: I think so.
Sam Lessin: Chamath by way of, of, uh, Gates. It's actually a good line.
Dave Morin: It was from the Facebook platform days. I remember it clearly. And it's just the truth. Like Anthropic is making all of the money, and none of the companies being built on top of it are making revenue that exceeds their revenue. And so you've got a really serious platform problem, and will that number continue to grow at the rate that it's growing, or will the venture capital music stop because people can't afford to keep paying these like luxury token prices into the arcade, putting more coins in, uh, to build their stuff? Are they getting the actual efficiency out of it? I'm hearing from CIOs and CEOs that they're not sure. They're not sure they're getting the token efficiency and the productivity gains. And how long does that circular economy re- just keep revolving around?
Sam Lessin: I like sw- switching roles with you, Dave. It's fun. The counter to all that, and we just talked about Google and the Google Search business. I think the thing that I, with Anthropic in particular, that I just don't know how this plays out, is the beauty of Google and Facebook, especially even Google more than Facebook as the best business models in the history of the world, is they get to turn the dials. Like you need some more money, just add, add another ad. You know what I mean? Like you, you can, you have total marketplace control. The interesting story with Anthropic is, oh, you need to make your quarter? Just like make it spend a few more tokens. You need... You're a little, little bit too much capacity, like a little not enough capacity, eh, tap down the tokens, make them a little more expensive. If they can get away with the dials themselves, it's an unbelievable business because even if for all of my curmudgeonliness, like you'll find ways to tune the dials to make money. The question is, how much of a marketplace is it? Because if they can't turn the dials because it's an open routery situation, oh, they're like cheating me here and I know they're cheating me, so I'm just gonna like use another provider of multiplying matrices, then it's a terrible-
Dave Morin: I do. That's what I do.
Sam Lessin: No, it's, it's more-
Dave Morin: That's what you do.
Sam Lessin: No, it's actually funny. It's like what I say I do, but in practice, I just don't care and give all my money to Anthropic. I know how to do it a little bit, but here's the... And the reason why, Dave, is an interesting one. This goes back. For me, the incremental cost of like I just want it done, I don't care if it costs a little bit more money, and I think that like is worth overspending on to a point, and I'm not at enough scale that I actually care. Like if it was like if it was thousands of dollars a month, maybe I'd care more. It's hundreds of dollars. But the que- But like I don't know what the counterfactual is 'cause it's hard to measure the output of like one model versus another in like a lot of the types of tasks I do. So this is gonna be like a big game. Is this a thing where you're like, "Look, I have to just trust Anthropic, and I'll let them turn the dials on me, and they're gonna extract enormous margin," and it's actually kind of a like enterprise li- Or is it a totally flat open electron marketplace with no barriers and no regulation, in which case terrible business. Although it still might not matter because number go up.
Guest: Going back to normies, people are enraged by gas prices right now. I lived with a mom. She would drive across town to go to the gas station because gas was like 20 cents less. Little did she know she was wasting gas.
Sam Lessin: By the way, that's a great idea. I want like a gas billboard for AI tokens. I'm gonna have Claude make that right now.
Dave Morin: Oh, yeah, please build it. That's such a good idea.
Guest: Right. And like Americans are doing this. Like the majority of America are looking at dollars, and they're de- they're deciding what the trade-offs are.
Dave Morin: Yeah, I mean, literally look at what was on stage at the White House yesterday. It was literally the, um, Trump Rx thing which, you know, Joe Gebbia got on stage and showed a map of the lowest prescription drug prices, right? Like that's the interface that people want. I think you have to like take this pretty seriously. I think there's also another thing playing out here, which is people hate AI. And the question... And the more... I, I have to admit that like the more I'm on the front lines of this, the more clear this is to me, and it's a serious problem. And as an industry, we have really done a bad job with this. Like people genuinely hate AI, and I think you have to look at it from a couple perspectives. But since we're talking about the public markets, I think these companies waited extremely too long to go public. And the people that, uh, the fact that people have no skin in the game and they have no ability to invest in these companies, like if you wanted to participate in the AI revolution as a retail investor, you have had no option other than Nvidia, Google. But Sam, like the kind of returns that are going, the spoils that are going to the OpenAI and Anthropic investors are insane. Like you can't even invest in Anthropic right now if you want to.
Jessica: But Dave, what are you-- I'm not sure what you're arguing for. You're, you're preaching a creed or screed that has been long, it has been true about You know, the economy for a long time. What... How, how would you fix-
Dave Morin: No, but I'm, I'm saying that I think this is playing into how angry people are.
Sam Lessin: But Dave, I think the thing that he... I agree that people fucking hate AI.
Dave Morin: Right.
Sam Lessin: First of all, I think I'd hate it anyway, and two, it doesn't matter because they're going to hate invest in it. What people are gonna view is, like, "I might be out of a job, so I better own Anthropic stock," right? Like, it's gonna be the men... And they're gonna hate it, but they're gonna do it, 'cause it's like, that's their hedge. So, but it, it is a hate invest, but they're gonna invest.
Dave Morin: Okay, but where I was going, Sam, is the worst thing that can then happen is that the r- rate of growth in Anthropic's revenue bobbles, and retail is left holding the bag.
Sam Lessin: I, I agree with... Like, th- this is so funny. We've been talking this whole episode, and everyone's talking about tokenomics, and like, it's just a crypto flashback. It's like, we're still selling tokens. It's still tokens. It's tokenomics. It's who's the retail holder on the tokens?
Dave Morin: If number growth rate change bobbles at all and retail gets left holding the AI bag-
Sam Lessin: But they're not. They, they don't have enough money to. Like, the reality is there's so... Like-
Dave Morin: Eh
Sam Lessin: ... these numbers are so big that, like, retail can't hold the bag. They don't have enough money.
Dave Morin: Retail's, like, a third of the market right now.
Guest: Yeah, I think they could put in a sig- Nick Finningham out there.
Sam Lessin: We'll see. I- The AI hatred narrative is partially just what it is. It's also, let's be honest, it's 'cause Sam Altman in particular, but everyone leaned into it as marketing. This is so scary. This is so powerful. This is gonna do these things. Like, it was a very explicit strategy for max dollars as quickly as possible. And you know what? It worked. But the cost of it working is that everyone hates it, and like, it took a long time for other platforms to be hated. This is, like, instant hate.
Dave Morin: And what I guess I'm saying is if anything goes wrong in the revenue execution path over the next 18 months, and retail's left holding the bag, it's going to be double hate, and that's very bad.
Sam Lessin: Maybe. But, but here's the funny thing, Dave, is like, because it's a h- it's like an emotional hedge to own. If you're, like, an average person, it's, like, an emotional hedge to invest in Anthropic, right? It's like, "I'm really mad about this, and it's probably gonna take my job." So it's, there's a kind of a funny irony to the hedging. If you lose $1,000 on it, but it might not take your job, you might actually be happier, right? So it's kind of like, it's almost like a, there's, like, an emot- it's like a six-seven. It's a six-seven.
Jessica: Okay. Have we solved anything, or are we just pointing out-
Sam Lessin: No, of course not. Why would we try to solve anything?
Jessica: But I tried. Okay, so Sam, I'm like, these companies are getting their public moment, which by the way, generation wealth event for blah, blah, blah, and Sam's like, "All they need to do is not fall off a cliff in the near term." Does anyone have anything else to add?
Dave Morin: I mean, yes, that's just the truth, right? I think it is actually really good that finally retail gets access to it. But I... It's interesting. It's like, would you... Obviously, we don't provide investment advice on this pod.
Guest: Dave, would you tell your mom and your sister in Montana to buy?
Dave Morin: I actually don't know, and I don't even know if I want to put it in my portfolio.
Sam Lessin: Well, you clearly don't. Why would you put it in your portfolio?
Dave Morin: But Sam, this is really important, right? If you or I are like, "Eh," like, that's a pretty important signal.
Sam Lessin: But to be clear, I'm also the guy who doesn't, keeps not investing in Google for the same reason, which is number too big. It doesn't... Like, I could, you can buy call... I might buy call options on it. When something at a trillion dollars, it's just not, it doesn't fit my risk profile. I either want way more risk or way less risk.
Guest: Yeah, but for an average person that puts in 5 or 10K, and they can double it in two to three years, they would think that's amazing.
Sam Lessin: I don't know. There are lots of ways to make way more money. Like, one of the funny things about the public market is like-
Dave Morin: Yeah, is it, I... Actually, is it SpaceX or is it Anthropic? That's actually the real... You know, if you were advising your friends back home to choose between Anthropic or SpaceX this year, which one would you do? Would you buy a portfolio or would you just buy SpaceX?
Sam Lessin: I mean, the, the cult of Elon, if you believe these are all just cult prices, forget the value of the companies, they're just cult prices. I mean, Elon is very good at this, right? The cult thing.
Guest: Yeah, I was gonna say, I'd buy SpaceX.
Dave Morin: I'd buy SpaceX.
Sam Lessin: Guys, this is amazing. By the way, the AI token prices is up. Uh, it's, it's live. It's on the internet. I'll send... It's, it's, uh, currently at tokens.lessontech.co. Uh, and-
Dave Morin: Epic
Sam Lessin: ... it's actually fully live and looks awesome.
Guest: I see it. I see it. It looks good.
Dave Morin: Oh, it's so good.
Sam Lessin: That took one prompt and about 30 seconds.
Jessica: Wait, what does it do?
Dave Morin: I've actually, I've been building something while we're talking too. It's totally different. I'm shipping so much code. It's awesome.
Jessica: I'm glad you guys are shipping code. I am cut and pasting, getting errors over here, so send help.
Sam Lessin: This is why Dave and I hope to not be part of the permanent underclass. But look, the, the- Here's the thing I don't know about you, Dave, is like, I ship a lot of code and do a lot with AI, and then people are like, "I'm spending $100,000." I'm like, "How? What are you doing?" Because, like, I'm using this shit really heavily.
Dave Morin: I think it's all just bullshit. I think they're bullshitting.
Guest: What are you spending, Sam?
Sam Lessin: I don't know. I think I would notice if it was more than $5,000 a month.
Guest: Have you guys not used AI to create a centralized family dashboard for your finances?
Sam Lessin: No.
Dave Morin: I mean, you guys should see what we're, what we're doing at OpenClaw. Like, our OpenClaw token spend is pretty insane.
Sam Lessin: I don't know. I just don't understand these, like, tech people are like, "I spent $30,000." You're like, "Doing what?" I mean, I guess you could screen the entire stock market continu- Like, there are ways I could invent to just blow that level of tokens, but it's very hard to think. I mean, I spend a lot of time thinking of ways to burn tokens, and it's, it's just very impressive.
Dave Morin: The way... Actually, Sam, here's a practical answer to your question. Like, I see this at OpenClaw because I think we're running one of the most, probably one of the most sophisticated token engineer- or agentic engineering operations outside of the labs, and the way that, that it really starts to go up is when you're running north of 10 agents at once. You know, like, we've got people on our core engineering team that are running 50, 100 agents at once, and you're running, like, a, you know, continuous integration process, like, very, very large volume. Like, you can get numbers pretty high doing that. But individuals, I don't know.
Jessica: Don't you... But Dave, your point about Google betting on other models I think is also really important because LLMs are awesome. They're gonna do what they're gonna do. But obviously there's gonna be More models and more research.
Dave Morin: Hopefully. There's, like, a lot of unknowns, actually. You know? There's- people have opinions. Um, I talked to one of the founders of one of the really, I think, one of the coolest new labs this morning. There's a lot of questions right now about what the next frontier is. Everybody's got different opinions, but it's very early.
Sam Lessin: It's been robot- all the fancy people like Fei-Fei have said it's world models for a while.
Jessica: There are a lot of fancy people saying a lot of things. Did you guys see Karpathy went to Anthropic?
Dave Morin: There... How does learning work, you know? Like, right now, agents can't learn anything. There's a lot of memory projects, but two years ago everybody was building, I don't know, like ve-vec... There was like a lot of pine cones and vector databases and, like, lots of-
Sam Lessin: What happened to Pinecone?
Dave Morin: That's what I'm saying. Like, every year there's, like, a bunch of tooling that goes on at the, like, layer right underneath these things.
Sam Lessin: And then it gets blown away.
Dave Morin: And then there's real foundational things that models still can't do. And so you've just got these, like, big questions that require a lot of research work.
Jessica: I do think I'd rather own Anthropic at a trillion than SpaceX at a trillion. Is that crazy?
Guest: Why?
Dave Morin: No.
Sam Lessin: Well, the... To be clear, a trillion is the top of the current Anthropic price and the by far bottom of the current SpaceX price.
Jessica: I'd probably buy both if that were, like, the exercise that I could do, and of course, to be clear, I can buy none of these.
Dave Morin: I mean, that is the question that I asked, like, what portfolio would you buy?
Jessica: Brad asked me why. Because I'm willing to believe, I'm willing to believe Anthropic's a great business. I'm actually also willing to believe OpenAI is a great business. I don't think you're gonna have... I would find it hard to believe that there'd be 10 of those kinds of businesses. I don't think five years from now when we're talking about AI, I think we're talking about more companies, not fewer. I think they have a lot of pieces to continue to have growth even in doing what they're doing. But there are also a lot of big risks that I think people don't talk about. I mean, on the consumer side, it's just like it turns out the search box is the search box and is the stickiest UX known to man, and you could have a model that's 50% as good, and I think Gemini's better than that. By the way, be pretty free and win consumer.
Sam Lessin: I think financially I can get the... I can totally understand the Anthropic bet over, or the SpaceX blah, blah, blah. I just, like, I'm fully okay with the fact we live in, like, a memetic cult war thing, and it's gonna be interesting. We've just seen, like, a mini skirmish in the cult war of Altman versus Musk. I think the next cult war will be Dario versus Elon.
Jessica: No, no. Dario and Elon are BFFs because they are compute buddies.
Dave Morin: I guess we have to throw that in there, Jess. What's your portfolio if it, if you have to choose an allocation between SpaceX, Anthropic, and OpenAI if they're all public this year?
Jessica: I would probably, because I don't know, de-risk and do something like a third, a third, a third, because I really don't know. But here's the thing on SpaceX. SpaceX is an incredible company. They are a monopoly on a thing pretty much that seems super important. I l- love Starlink. I also think that it is possible that orbital economics do not go the way that Bezos and Musk think they will in terms of, like, making sense for all this, like, space industry. Like, I think space will probably... well, most certainly be more important in defense because there, you know, we're gonna fight on every corner of this planet that we can. But I'm not yet convinced it's fully obvious that all this other industry will move into space. That is sort of what fuels a big story about the sort of rocket launching business. I think it's possible, but-
Dave Morin: Beyond Starlink, you mean.
Jessica: Yeah. But I think it's possible, but I think it's also could not follow that trajectory. And I do think Starlink is so, so, so, so far ahead and obviously will be vertically integrated with the launch capabilities. It's a tough next doubling for them, I think.
Sam Lessin: Doubling in what? In valuation or in business?
Jessica: No, in bus- in business kind of. Like, maybe not doubling, maybe triple.
Sam Lessin: Look at the Tesla story.
Dave Morin: Do they just merge with Tesla?
Guest: Well, that's for sure gonna happen.
Jessica: I don't believe the Tesla... I guess also, like, I don't wanna own a meme stock. Not... That would be, make me a bad investor, but it's just, like, not my jam.
Dave Morin: Isn't that also where all the robots are going? Like, all the humanoids are gonna go onto SpaceX rockets to go to Mars, right?
Jessica: I do think Anthropic and OpenAI are very good businesses. I think there are major unanswered questions. Everyone's sort of pretending that we have answers we don't have. But I also... Really big answers we don't have. But for them to fundamentally shift their trajectories now would require, like, a series of massive crises, some of whom have already sustained massive crises and, and kind of weathered them. So I think they are, like, generational companies and then the question is just how generational, and I think people are underestimating things like local compute, open source, other model. Like, I think it's ridiculous to be dismissive of those, but I also... You know, sometimes you, like, kind of do get lightning in a bottle. I don't know. That's what I think as of today. Reserve the right to change my opinion tomorrow but-
Guest: Let's check in in six months.
Jessica: I don't know. That said, like, it is the cost piece I just keep coming back to again and again and again, and I think for many of these, you know, whatever the front, front, front, frontier is, how many people really need to pay a premium for that? But you could make an incredible business by getting a very small group of people to really pay a premium for, for that intelligence. Like, that could be an incredible business and that might be what they become and Anthropic will... They have line of sight to 100 billion in revenue, like, no question kind of where. Like, I don't... I mean, they're not gonna, like, hit that this year or whatever, but, like, that's not a crazy thing for them, and their growth is accelerating. So that's how I feel. Big pie at this moment with the existential threat being, of course, that everyone hates AI, including potentially... Do we have this executive order yet? I don't know if you guys have been-
Guest: Oh, like the White House has to review all the models before-
Jessica: Yeah, they're not... So what happened, and I don't know what-
Dave Morin: Nah, that's fake news.
Jessica: Yeah, that is fake news. What, well, what happened-
Guest: So what is happening?
Jessica: Let me get to the bottom of this for you. So... Oh, The Information just published.
Guest: Yeah, I learned about this from The Information. What are you talking about it's fake news?
Dave Morin: Depends on what you're talking about.
Jessica: What's happening, I think, and, uh, is that-
Dave Morin: No, this is not real
Jessica: ... I thought it was n- non-real too until they started briefing these companies today on it. So something has happened. That still may mean they don't do it, but they've definitely taken it to the next step.
Dave Morin: I think there's various forces that are at work here. You know, the, the more I understand the, the policy conversation, there's different agencies with different agendas, and some want it, some don't, some senators, blah, blah, blah.
Jessica: No, no, Dave, I completely agree with you, and I think what only thing that changed in the last three weeks, three months, is that those factions became a little more public and a little more discreet.
Dave Morin: Well, it seems like what's happening is that the power of 55 Cyber and Mythos are, like, pretty up there. You know, as I understand it, these things can, like, rip open binaries. Like, there's no more closed source anymore. It's pretty crazy, actually, to think about. I don't even know how to think about software going forward. It's like all software is open source now, I guess.
Jessica: Well, anyway, it's gotten to the point where they held a briefing for the companies yesterday, so that, that is saying, uh, talking about plans to pre-review, which obviously would be a sea change for this administration. Um, although there's much nuance to it.
Dave Morin: Yeah. I just don't see it happening, like, they can't... Well, I guess maybe they could, but-
Jessica: Why would the national cyber director have met yesterday with OpenAI, Anthropic, and Reflection to walk through the model, to walk through the changes? I don't know.
Dave Morin: Which agency is that person responsible for? What do they represent?
Jessica: The White House's office. I agree, Dave. In recent weeks, there have been, like, four different drafts of this thing that we've been leaked, and they're all different, and they're all from different factions. So I am totally with you on the factionalism. But for the White House to host a briefing yesterday certainly suggests there's movement in that direction. They could back off. You don't call these companies for a meeting and fill them in on something you're planning not to do two days later.
Dave Morin: Yeah, but it could also just be coordination, right? Like, it's clear that there needs to be pretty serious coordination around these new capabilities, and that, that matters to national security. Doesn't necessarily mean, like, clamping down control.
Jessica: They specifically discussed reviewing advanced models before they are released.
Dave Morin: Isn't that already happening? Like, that's the present, right? They're already taking these things. Uh, they're already controlling who gets access to these things.
Jessica: Not reviewing who gets access to them, but presumably reviewing something about how they operate. This is what the Biden executive order attempted to do but never really did. Before we wrap, because, dear friends, we have a business meeting, we're gonna talk about the business of the More or Less pod after this. That's what we should really streamline.
Sam Lessin: This is like an AI business. We just burn tokens and money.
Jessica: Yeah. Um, well, Sam, you're the one who gets these unsolicited sponsorships you hide from us until you plug them.
Sam Lessin: I think that what... The company that sponsored my newsletter just raised a ton of money. I, like, saw this, like, news flash by. I was like, "Wow, that's awesome."
Guest: Let's only do sponsorships for equity going forward.
Sam Lessin: I have to look this up. I think it was the Victor company that I just saw some headline they raised. And they, they had been, like, messaging, and they're the ones who, like, had advertising in my newsletter. Probably should have asked them to invest.
Jessica: Brit, I actually don't really want equity in random AI startups.
Guest: Why? I just feel like we should have a portfolio of lots of things.
Jessica: I think that's the stuff that makes me nervous. The, like, 101 billboard economy, like, makes me nervous. Like, I don't think those are the companies.
Guest: Sam's literally bought all the 101 billboards.
Sam Lessin: I have not. I bought one 101 billboard, and it was awesome.
Jessica: Okay, we got to PHISH. We got to IO, Dell World, IPO. We should mention everyone knows that OpenAI won a decisive victory in their Elon Musk trial that came down to the jury deciding Elon was too late to file this lawsuit.
Sam Lessin: So they didn't really decide on the thing.
Jessica: They n- did not decide on it, none of that who's trustworthy, who's worth $30 billion, none of that. Just literally he was too late, the statute of limitations had run out.
Sam Lessin: I, I, I got Etiquette on the cover of The Wall Street Journal.
Jessica: Amazing.
Dave Morin: That's amazing.
Jessica: Congrats, Sam.
Sam Lessin: So good. The photos were hilarious, whoever made those photos.
Jessica: Etiquette School had its moment. I don't... What's coming-
Sam Lessin: Not had. You think it's past tense?
Jessica: Once you're on the front page of The Wall Street Journal, you kinda jump the shark, Sam, but yes, what, what's next for Etiquette School?
Sam Lessin: Not in my book.
Dave Morin: Up next is AI token prices as gas dashboards. This is pretty good, Sam.
Sam Lessin: I mean, for literally three seconds of work.
Dave Morin: Could we, like, get better model names? Like, it would be so much cooler if they were leaded and unleaded. I never know, like, what, what all these numbers mean. What does flash mean?
Guest: 'Cause a lot of engineers are naming models. They don't have people who actually understand brands.
Dave Morin: I literally don't know what any of it means. Which one make code happen fast?
Sam Lessin: Well, it is interesting just looking at the, looking at this pricing that was just published by the bot in one-
Dave Morin: It is interesting this way. Yeah
Sam Lessin: ... it's actually quite interesting this way, 'cause it just turns out, you realize how incredibly expensive Anthropic and OpenAI are.
Dave Morin: Luxury tokens.
Sam Lessin: Wildly expensive, right? Like, compared to-
Dave Morin: They're 5X.
Sam Lessin: 5X Google. So you're like, "Why?" Like, what's going on with that? Like, why are... I mean, are they really able... To your point, Dave, it's like Anthropic reports a profit by charging four times as much for their tokens.
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: And when they control how many tokens they generate, et cetera.
Dave Morin: They're literally doing what you said, Sam. You know, luxury tokens. They're, they're pricing at the efficient frontier.
Sam Lessin: Well, I don't wanna buy your shitty two... Like, what's going on with xAI? Grok Petrol 250 for an output token and Grok 43?
Jessica: Can you explain, just 'cause I probably wasn't listening, and I assume maybe others weren't, 'cause you move very fast, what does this thing track?
Sam Lessin: The cost of tokens.
Guest: The cost per million-
Sam Lessin: Per million tokens
Guest: ... tokens.
Sam Lessin: But it's, it's standardized.
Guest: Have you checked the numbers? 'Cause I always just wanna double-check AI's numbers.
Sam Lessin: Well, I'll ask, I'll ask Grok to check whether, uh, Claude can do it.
Dave Morin: There you go.
Jessica: Okay. So i- for those listening, this is page that has, for each of the model makers, it lists their model and the cost of... Oh, of their token. I see. And you just made them look like gas numbers.
Sam Lessin: Well, it makes it easier to then feel about them and internalize, you know? It just is wild- To see how expensive Exxon Anthropic-
Jessica: Why is OpenAI Mini so expensive?
Sam Lessin: I don't know, but, like, these are the questions to ask.
Dave Morin: You're saying o4-mini, Jess, because that's a-
Jessica: Oh, yeah
Dave Morin: ... reasoning model.
Jessica: Sorry.
Dave Morin: It, it uses-
Jessica: Move forward
Dave Morin: ... more tokens.
Jessica: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: I just asked Groq, which now has their version of Claude Code, which actually seems pretty good. I just started messing with it to check Claude's work. So I'm gonna put this on a cron for updates every hour.
Dave Morin: Yeah, the new Groq is actually pretty good. The new Groq's pretty good, Sam.
Guest: The normal Americans are gonna go with the Google prices of this gas chart.
Dave Morin: Or the Groq prices.
Sam Lessin: And, like, it's really funny, 'cause you know what? You know what? It's kind of like open source. It's kind of like owning, uh, a Tesla. What was the old Tes- Like a Toyota Camry or like a... What's the-
Dave Morin: Your Toyota truck.
Guest: Prius.
Sam Lessin: A Prius. That's what I was thinking of. Thank you, Brit. So you have, like, Prius pricing. Oh, it went with Together Serverless. I like Together. Good for them.
Jessica: It wouldn't be a More or Less if we didn't at least create o- one business while we were on here.
Sam Lessin: I- it's not a business if it takes one prompt.
Dave Morin: Ooh, I also just finished and published a CLI for Setlist so that your agent can get the most recent setlist from your favorite bands, and then j- auto-generate a Spotify playlist of the concert that your favorite band played last night.
Jessica: Is CLI replacing MCP?
Dave Morin: Yeah, CLIs are way better than MCPs, um, in almost all contexts.
Sam Lessin: Dave, I do wanna point you and Brit to Lesson Boy Podcast.ai.
Guest: I already looked at it.
Sam Lessin: It's real good.
Dave Morin: Oh, yeah, we have to promote Ansel's game, Brit.
Guest: Oh, Ansel has a new game in the App Store called Tide Shift.
Sam Lessin: Do you want... Does... Do you want... Does Ansel want Lesson Boy, uh, Games.com to promote his podcast?
Dave Morin: Yes.
Guest: No.
Dave Morin: 'Cause we have-
Guest: Can they air a collab?
Dave Morin: That would be great.
Guest: Ansel can do some cross-promo in the app, if that helps.
Jessica: Our children are very into the economy, making some money, thinking of their values.
Sam Lessin: Our middle son wants to be a garbage man, though.
Jessica: No, he wants to be a plumber.
Dave Morin: That's fine.
Jessica: At least he thinks he-
Dave Morin: Great. He's listening... He must be listening to the, uh, AI podcast telling him where the jobs are gonna be.
Guest: I don't think the jobs are gonna be there. The... They just showed humanoid robots cleaning a hotel room in two minutes, and then... And I was like, "Well, standard household cleaners."
Dave Morin: Brit, plumbers are gr- gonna be great. They're set for life.
Jessica: Dear listeners, thank you. We hope we gave you some, uh, meat as well with the fluff of this episode, and you can guarantee there'll be more news happening in tech, and that we'll have opinions on it. So we'll see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye.
Guest: Bye. If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes, and follow us on social media by searching for @moreorless, @davemorin, @lesson, @jlesson, and as for me, I'm @brit. See you guys next time.