#156 — Why Identity Verification Matters For The Internet | Vox Americanus, GLM 5.2, Claude Fable 5 Is Back
July 03, 2026 · Listen · All episodes · Chat with the show's AI
Jessica Lessin, Dave Morin, Brit Morin and Sam Lessin debate the tech of the week.
Full transcript (AI-generated — may contain transcription errors):
Sam Lessin: Cultural fit, I think matters way more now than ever before, when, like, the ability to be a great engineer is, like, much easier than ever before.
Jessica: I am gonna play the normie on this. I like my agent. It's useful for work. I don't believe we are all headed for a future where we all need to be vibe coders.
Sam Lessin: Anthropic, like, started getting more and more hype in Q1. I think things got viral. They've done a great job of marketing. A lot of these businesses that, like, were in the spot we were at in, like, Q4, Q1 are just getting that marketing hit to them now.
Dave Morin: People who have smart, real opinions, but the internet doesn't give a shit about them. You know, it's like user 87342, and you kinda look like a bot, and you have interesting stuff to say, but you're indistinguishable from a Russian bot. I get no attention, no voice, whatever.
Brit Morin: More or less. Is it no or is it yes? We'll debate the tech that's best. Will we get more or less? Dave and Brit, plus Sam and Jess. Put it all right to the test. More or less.
Jessica: Why hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less, and we've got the full quad here pre-4th of July.
Dave Morin: What's up?
Guest: Hey, guys.
Sam Lessin: Sam has decor in his background.
Jessica: Sam has decor.
Guest: I like it.
Dave Morin: Yeah, I do have decor.
Sam Lessin: Did you decorate your office yourself, Sam?
Dave Morin: Of course. I'm definitely in my office.
Sam Lessin: That's called a macrame hanging, by the way, in case you weren't sure.
Dave Morin: Didn't know that. Good to know.
Sam Lessin: Yeah, now you do.
Jessica: What's up, More-ans? Give us the lowdown, 'cause it has not been the biggest of tech news week. We've got tech news, don't worry, plenty to talk about, but still, like, give us the update.
Guest: Does that mean the summer's starting?
Sam Lessin: No.
Jessica: Maybe. Wait, what is... Is it VC summer, May to October? Like, what's VC summer?
Sam Lessin: I don't think in AI there's VC summer. I don't have a VC summer right now.
Jessica: There's no VC summer?
Guest: No.
Jessica: What will all the eFoils do?
Sam Lessin: Well, the LPs I think are all off, 'cause they're, you know, all, like, you know, denominator effect, blah, blah, blah. Waiting for the IPOs and liquidity. But VCs are still working hard.
Guest: eFoiling is kind of dead, I think.
Sam Lessin: Why is eFoiling dead?
Jessica: No, I know, it was a bad reference. It's Padel that it-
Dave Morin: No, I'm, I was actually looking at the next eFoil to buy, 'cause we destroyed our old eFoil.
Jessica: Oh, no.
Guest: Really?
Dave Morin: Yeah. I think the kids need to get good at it.
Guest: Do you think people got too hurt on them? Like, what, what happened?
Dave Morin: No, I, I just think, I... The, it's very simple, which is the eFoil is a great gateway drug, but if you get into foiling, they're stupid.
Jessica: Yeah.
Dave Morin: And so, like, anyone serious, like, gets off them. There's Foil Drive, which is cool. There's natural foiling. There's a lot of foiling things that are awesome, but e- eFoils are worth about three days of someone's attention. And so I think either everyone tries it and skins out or tries it and upgrades, but there's no, there's no consistent... There's no way to stay on an eFoil, right? It's a very churny medium.
Jessica: You outgrow it pretty fast.
Dave Morin: The reason to buy it is for children, but then again, it's a $15,000 toy for children, which is like-
Guest: No.
Sam Lessin: And it's too heavy. If they made it lighter, then kids and women could carry it.
Jessica: It's pretty dangerous. Pretty dangerous.
Dave Morin: They have. I've looked at this. There's, there's the new one. There are two new lift models. One is much lighter. It looks great, but it has an unshielded prop, which I'm fine with, but kinda defeats the kid purpose. And then the shielded prop one is still big. So it's like, eh, it's like, I think it's a great thing to own as a gateway drug, but, like, it's just there's no consistent usage path to them is the problem.
Jessica: Okay. But do you guys know what? I think our story will have come out now, but the, The Information will have a blockbuster story around this time about the rise of Padel among the venture capital community. And I promise you, this is a story you wanna read, because we broke down the coolest clubs.
Sam Lessin: Not again. Ugh. They're all in New York. San Francisco has not gotten into Padel yet.
Guest: I'm sorry, Jess, but, like, Padel and pickleball are the snowboarding of tennis.
Jessica: No, uh, pickle is. Pickle is. Padel has a slightly more, a warmer relationship with tennis.
Guest: East Coast vibe.
Dave Morin: Well, it's European.
Sam Lessin: They called it Padel just to sound like it's classier. It's like, "I went shopping at Target today." It doesn't actually make it classy.
Jessica: No, you can call it Padel or Padel, doesn't really matter. Anyway, we have breaking news about Philippe Laffont's latest placement in a Padel tournament, and basically the entire New York to Miami tech scene. Dara Khosrowshahi, did I say his last name, of Uber. You've got, what is it, Dan Sondheim, the founder of D1 Capital Partners. These people are obsessed, so this is all the rage. I hear the hottest-
Guest: This sounds very East Coast to me.
Sam Lessin: Same.
Jessica: It is, but there are new clubs opening in San Francisco, which you'll have to learn about. Neil Mehta of Green Oaks is pushing this.
Sam Lessin: Is this like the new golf?
Guest: Isn't it just outdoor racquetball?
Jessica: Kind of. It's a little bit different, and the ball isn't, like, as dangerous as a racquetball.
Sam Lessin: And indoor. You can play indoor.
Dave Morin: They're not racket-, they're not dangerous. It- I think it's... Look, look, here's the upshot, is people-
Guest: Sam, please clarify this for me.
Jessica: A year from now we will all be members of clubs in the Bay Area. Mark my words.
Dave Morin: No.
Guest: Ugh.
Dave Morin: It's very simple. The media needs a new racket narrative, and so there has to be a new racket sport to feed that, obviously.
Jessica: I could just milk tennis for all it's worth, by the way.
Guest: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, what's wrong with tennis?
Dave Morin: No, I'll explain. Tennis is actually a very difficult sport, and it's great. It's the best, but it's like, it's very hard, right? And it requires a lot of space and da, da, da, da. So pickle splits off as, like, effectively ping pong for people who wanna pretend like they're playing tennis, but if you're a fancy person, you don't wanna associate with pickleball players. You know what I mean? Like, it's, like, disgusting.
Guest: Yeah, it's snowboarding.
Jessica: I want a $30 kits smoothie. That's what I want, so.
Dave Morin: To be clear, I, I actually came in second in a pickleball tournament last year, so, and I actually got a great prize for it.
Jessica: Who won one? Who won one?
Dave Morin: Oh, w- that was a friends one. I, this was a non-friends one.
Jessica: Okay.
Dave Morin: But Jessica's very good too. But, like, people who are... The, the founder of D1 Capital doesn't wanna associate with the plebs that play pickleball. That's disgusting. And so you have to come up with a new version that has the benefits of pickle but can be more elitist.
Guest: It's the most East Coast banter of all time.
Jessica: Guys, it's great. It's coming to the Bay Area, is my point.
Dave Morin: And so now we have elite non-pros who will play Padel. You have committed good athletes who will play tennis.
Sam Lessin: Yep.
Dave Morin: And then you have everyone else who's playing ping pong on steroids. Which again, is quite fun. Like, I am not actually anti-pickle, but, like, I also love McDonald's.
Sam Lessin: I'm gonna stick in the poker league. I, I'm gonna be part of the tech community that's in-
Jessica: You can- have you gone full mahjong yet, Brit? I can now play.
Sam Lessin: God.
Jessica: I know the rules.
Sam Lessin: I know, that's the other one. All the girls are doing mahjong.
Dave Morin: It's, actually, there is a poker analogy here, which is poker's a great game. It's hard. It's hard to play poker at an elite level, right?
Sam Lessin: Yes, it is.
Dave Morin: And it's kinda like the tennis of card games. And so you, I don't know, like, what is the pickle of card games? Is it, like, spit? Like, there's gotta be, like, an e-
Sam Lessin: Speed.
Dave Morin: Wait, what is it?
Sam Lessin: Spoons.
Dave Morin: Spoons. And then there's, like, the elite-
Sam Lessin: Hearts
Dave Morin: ... which is back getting, heart, which, hearts, which is fun, and then there's an elite level which is getting back into bridge, which is really hard, right? And so, like, you just, you have this differentiations that everyone needs a community, everyone needs a, you know, a cult, and they need to create differences amongst each other, and then the media loves it 'cause they can write stories about it and make money.
Jessica: This is gonna be a blockbuster for us, but it's also a really important trend because for all of you VCs who need to know how to network, you gotta pick up this sport, I promise you. Or you founders who wanna network with VCs.
Dave Morin: If you wanna hang out with really rich people, this is a great sport to learn.
Guest: You don't need to take it up to hang out with me. I'll hang out with you at a coffee shop in San Francisco.
Jessica: And you have to go to Mill Valley to hang out with you. Dave, you have to go to Mill Valley. You're gonna make people go to The Lodge in Mill Valley.
Dave Morin: But D- but Dave, you're not that rich. Like, if you wanna hang out with really rich people-
Guest: What an asshole.
Dave Morin: No, I'm just like, there's a spectrum. I'm not either. I'm not, I didn't found D1 Capital. Like, there's a spectrum. You and I are solidly-
Guest: I don't even know what D1 Capital is.
Jessica: Guys, they're such a big tech inve- They're a hugely important investor.
Dave Morin: The basic point is this. It's like there's always these shortcut co- It's like, if you happen to play polo, right? It turns out that, like-
Sam Lessin: Oh, God
Dave Morin: ... you're gonna end up hanging out with a bunch of really rich people because, like, they want someone to play on their polo team, right? Like, there's just, like, a thing, right? Like...
Jessica: Okay, this is relevant because the networks, and tribes, and power centers are relevant.
Dave Morin: Look, I don't even have enough people who can go heli-skiing with me. It's the same thing.
Jessica: Oh, no.
Dave Morin: It's like if you can kinda-
Jessica: Yeah.
Guest: Or just, here's the, here's another idea. Just make an amazing product, and everyone will come to you.
Dave Morin: Yeah, but that's hard. It's much easier to learn padel.
Jessica: If you can get, like, 60 billion in ARR in year three. Okay, speaking of amazing products, there has been a product launch among this group this week, and it has not been me, although our app is out there if anyone wants to try it.
Dave Morin: Jess's app is good.
Jessica: Sam, would you like to talk about your new product?
Guest: I like your app, Jess.
Sam Lessin: Thanks, guys. I think almost all of us are launching a new product every week, but for what it's worth.
Dave Morin: It's just that the barrier's so low.
Guest: Are we talking about Sam's America thing?
Jessica: We're talking about Vox Americanas. Vox Americanas.
Dave Morin: Vox Americanas. So look, here's the, here's the upshot.
Guest: Which, like, I f- I feel like I should get a little, tiny bit of credit here.
Dave Morin: Y- we can all take tiny bits of credit for all sorts of things. The, um, here's the deal, is I have never understood why Twitter, for instance, doesn't just launch the validate my ID to get a special, like, I'm an American who lives in California, or at least I have a driver's license in California ID. Like, it makes no sense to me. Like, this is not... It used to be really hard to do this. There's now so many services that make this so easy. I don't really understand why the big platforms don't do it. It's not that expensive. And like, when you think about the quality of online discourse, if you don't wanna talk to Russian bots or whatever, it's just a really easy way to raise the bar on, like, fake accounts, and stupid people, and whatever a little bit, right? So I think that's probably what they should happen at some point, but in the spirit of it's 2026, I was like, "Look, I'll just make my own," right? And so basically this is a classic Vibe Coded plus a little secret Sam sauce, but let's be honest, mostly Vibe Coded app where, like, I was like, look, Stripe is an ID service. It's not expensive. Why don't I just make it so that, A, you basically have to sign up, and you have to have a license on file that will tell what state you are, what, that you're, you know, have an American ID, and what your real name is. And then, like, let's just have a dialogue with real Americans where we can actually talk about things we care about with people who are actually in America, and not quite citizens, but directionally citizens, versus, like, random bots and getting mad at them on the internet. Now, the interesting thing which I'm figuring out, and I'm gonna play with this more, there's a few things. Like, actually the f- place I started was doing full anonymity. So you prove you're an American, and you prove you're in California, but, like-
Guest: Ugh
Dave Morin: ... no, like, and there's some benefits to that, but it gets confusing and complicated. So the version I've launched for now is just-
Jessica: You're Mr., like, OG on real identity.
Dave Morin: I am an OG. I really care about this. I think this is a fundamental problem of the internet. The reason the internet worked was because there was no identity, which made it super easy to join. Like, this is going all the way back. It was born without any sort of identity layer. Fine. We have now spent the last 30 years trying to bootstrap an identity layer on top of it to fix that because when it actually becomes important, it really matters. Like, if, like, the person flaming on the internet is real or not, it r- it really matters if they're American or not. Like, it's a very different vibe. And so, look, I was very hopeful. There was an era where Facebook was super focused on this, and I think Facebook originally, original Facebook, like F- Harvard Facebook, did a really... Like, the thing that made it work was bootstrapping real identity in an unsafe space. Like, that was it. It was internet's scary, Sandra Bullock the net. Oh, shit, we can bootstrap off of fast.harvard.edu, and then different schools, and have trust in real names and real people, and that made it a safe, friendly, inviting place where you could have real conversations with real people. We're now, like, 16 generations past that, and with bots, this is a really big problem. And so, like, I do think candidly for this to be solved at scale, it's like a platform problem. It's not like me building Vox Americanas. But I also think the only way to play, and advocate, and figure it out is to build it. And so, like, it's cool. It works. I gotta give credit to Stripe's ID service. It's great.
Jessica: Very easy sign-up.
Dave Morin: It's so easy to sign up. You put in a license, you twist your head a few times, and it's like, yeah, that's a real person with American ID. It's like-
Sam Lessin: Wait, so Sam, what's in it for me, though? Why do I need to rush to sign up?
Dave Morin: Well, so this is the interesting thing, right, and I think this is, like, one of the things I'm, I'm gonna struggle with in terms of, like, as I evolve this and play with it. Like, the people for whom this is probably most relevant, right, are people who have smart, real opinions, but the internet doesn't give a shit about them, right? Like, they, they're like, you know, it's like user 87342, and you kinda look like a bot, and you have interesting stuff to say, but you're indistinguishable from a Russian bot, and so you're like, "I... Like, this, like, I get no attention, no voice, whatever." Someone like you or me, like, we have enough of an online identity and enough following that, like, it isn't that valuable for us to post to just Americans. We might as well just post to everyone. And so there is, that is, like, the fundamental question is, like, in theory, I would love to have a place I put things out and I actually care about the feedback and the engagement 'cause they are actual fellow Americans, right? Like, that is the thing I want, and I don't really wanna put things out and get flamed by a bunch of bots, which I also do. Like, but, like, there's a, the, that, that subtlety, the first principle, "Does this make sense?" is great. The badge at, "I wanna be taken more seriously on the internet, and so I validate my ID on Twitter," is obvious and it's annoying to me it doesn't happen. But then the, what, like, if you really try to bootstrap a new service, like, the exact use case of, like, why I care enough is, like, the interesting question, right?
Guest: I think we've talked about it several times on the pod. One of my favorite hobby horses is the question of why doesn't America do this on two different levels. Like, why doesn't America provide and then protect American digital identity on a global-
Dave Morin: Yeah
Guest: ... basis?
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Guest: But then secondly, why don't we do a better job of protecting the American internet from rogue external actors, but also just, you know, just because it's free speech inside of America doesn't mean you should be able to be a citizen from outside of America and come inside of our internet and mess around inside of our internet, right? And so the platform question you mentioned is one that I've never really understood why, say, Facebook doesn't care more about this. It might actually improve the quality of the discourse on, say, Threads or, uh, you know, original Facebook if they provided a space like this. But, you know, I, I get it, they don't have the incentive, right? But-
Dave Morin: It's complicated, and look, we've talked-
Guest: Yeah
Dave Morin: ... about this intellectually a thousand times, but it's 2026. You just build stuff. And, like, the reality is, like, I like tinkering, and it is fascinating. The big delta from today versus even a few years ago is it's shockingly easy to validate IDs, right? The APIs are now really robust for it. There's Persona, there's Stripe. Like, it's so easy to do that rather than argue about this intellectually, the better thing is just to build stuff and see what you learn. 'Cause it's like, yeah, it's, all, everything you're saying was right, and it is a hard set of product problems, but I think we're just at a moment where you just do stuff.
Guest: I mean, Sam, maybe you should run for office and-
Sam Lessin: Oh, damn
Guest: ... uh, use this as-
Sam Lessin: Lauren, do it. Do it.
Jessica: What are you talking about?
Guest: Maybe you should extend your Harvard run from last year and all of your learnings to a higher level run for office, and Vox Americanas should be the, like, platform that you carry with you.
Dave Morin: So I, I've had a few people very flatteringly reach out and tell me I should run for office in various forms. Here's the interesting thing that I've found.
Guest: I'm on the record. I think you should.
Dave Morin: A lot of people go out there and they say, "Look, we w-" They, especially on the Democrat side 'cause they're so lost, and they say, "Hey, we need to find, like, young-ish, credible-ish people with reasonable views," and they're like, "We'll help you with your media strategy and campaigning so you can run for office." What I've said to these people is, "You guys have this backwards," right? In two ways. First of all, in 2026, you can't take someone who's, like, the nice guy liked in the community and build a media strategy for them. You need them to already have, like, a media footprint themselves.
Guest: That's why you're perfect.
Dave Morin: Fine. But then here's the second part, which is the second part of my talk track, is, one, you can't just, like, find good people and, like, give them the... You, you're not good enough at this, and, like, there are lots of people. Like, find celebrities and well-known people that already have that. And then here's the biggest thing I think I keep saying to people is, like, the thing you have to solve if you want good people to run to- for office is not the campaigning, it's make the job not suck. Like, if you had a nonprofit infrastructure, which, look, Sam, here's the deal. You, you should run for some whatever, and you have the media voice. We'll help you develop, like, on the margin, a few connections, whatever, but the real reason that you should do this is you know the job sucks, but we'll provide, like, all the infrastructure, the bill writing, the rel- Like, we'll do, we'll basically create a platform where you can just be the candidate and make the final decision, and we'll be, like, the huge infrastructure behind it. That works so much better.
Guest: I thought that's what every institute in DC is.
Dave Morin: No, I think that they're, like, still oriented around this i- Like, I don't... Like, the job sucks too much. Like, I think if you started from the perspective of, like, "I want the job to suck zero. How do I make politics an appealing job?" And then you backfill and get the candidates, versus being like, "Well, we'll help you campaign to get the job, and then you have to do the job."
Guest: I think the job only sucks for people who care what people say about them. If you don't care, like, about all of the drama that surrounds being in the public eye, then the job might not suck.
Dave Morin: Well, but I'll give you a really basic, silly example in California. I know some people who are running for office in California, and, like, what a shitty life trade. Like, you have to be in Sacramento all the time. It's the worst.
Guest: I'm not talking about California, man. I'm talking about America.
Dave Morin: Uh, yeah, but, uh, let's just expand this. Like, DC has the same problem. You're like, "Look, here's the deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to be in Sacramento all the time, but, like, we have a, you know, PC12 network, and we will just, like, make this an afternoon for you rather than trying to get there on your own," right? Like, that's the type of infrastru- Like, I want briefings done for me. I want my office already set. I, like, want everything turnkey so I can just drop in for, uh, like, for key moments effectively, and I don't wanna a- Like, I think that's the thing is, like, the job is it pays shittily. It's a shitty life. It's away from your family. It's like all these things you'd have to solve for. And you said, like, the reason you- that we can fix politics is, like, we'll solve all the bad parts for you of the actual job, then I think you'd get better candidates.
Guest: That's a fair point. You do have to like being on the road. That's probably... It's sort of like being a musician, like, the life is extremely difficult. You're just on the road all the time.
Dave Morin: It's awful, and it's like, it's like even, like, you know, we had another friend who ran for a big office recently, and, like, they just didn't see their kids forever. And you're like, "Why would you do that for yourself? For what? For, like, a low-paying job?"
Jessica: What about what David Sacks did or what Sriram did? I mean...
Dave Morin: I mean, those aren't real jobs. Like, that is kind of a version of it.
Guest: But you can have impact, right? Like, you could have impact. I mean, Sam, let's say a libertarian Democrat won a next election, which is highly unlikely, but you know, you could go do that kind of a, a role and have a serious impact on this, on this exact idea.
Dave Morin: I get it. I just think there's, like, a deeper thing to solve here, right? Which is, like, there's a... The reason they're like, "Why don't good people run for office?" Whether or not I'm a good person is a separate question. But, like- And I think everyone focuses on the, "Well, campaigning sucks," and, like, they don't have the media strategy and voice. I'm like, I actually think you guys just acknowledge the fact the actual job sucks. Let's solve for that, and then you can backfill into the other things and find the right candidates. Like, you know. Like, the thing I would want to be marketed is, "This job actually sounds awful, but if you... We'll provide all the infrastructure so that it's, like, a great job," if that makes sense. Then you figure out the rest, you know?
Sam Lessin: I think you should have a writer, like celebrities do when they do concerts. It's like, "I'll do your job, but I... Here's my writer."
Dave Morin: And I do think there's a difference between the elected, like-
Jessica: Exactly what Americans want from their tech politicians.
Sam Lessin: Hey, if they're gonna get, like, a 10X increase in intelligence, I think America would do it. And by the way, I also think you should be a czar. I think David Sacks was onto something with the czar title.
Dave Morin: No, but so but the thing about that is, like, I do think, to Jess's point, there are people who have, like, figured this out, how to be in the government without being in the government, and, like, that is what they've done. The problem is, like, those are not elected jobs. They're nowhere near... Like, you get to, like, say some stuff and be in there for some meetings, but, like, it's a vice chairman role at best. And, like, those are actually not what you need. You need better fundamental politicians is my view, right?
Jessica: Brit, do you have any political aspirations?
Dave Morin: Brit, you could do it.
Sam Lessin: People have also told me that I should run for office. I've always thought Dave would make for a great First Gentleman. But-
Dave Morin: Dave would make a great First Gentleman.
Guest: I'm in.
Sam Lessin: It's not in my next decade. I might reconsider in my 50s. We'll see.
Jessica: Man candy number one. Man candy number one.
Guest: I'm definitely never doing it, but I'm happy to be the First Gentleman.
Sam Lessin: I'm gonna put Dave and his agents on my opposition research team.
Guest: Ooh, crazy.
Sam Lessin: I mean, he's gonna figure out all, all the stuff to talk about-
Guest: Oh, God
Sam Lessin: ... about the other people.
Guest: This is why we're never doing this.
Jessica: You just want Dave's agents.
Guest: I mean, look, I think the reason this conversation was interesting is it's about distribution, Sam. Like, your idea is amazing. I actually want to participate in Vox Americana at scale, without question. I think it would be deeply healthy for the American populace and for society, but the question of distribution, that's why I sort of threw that idea out. Like, would Trump Social or Truth Social have ever gotten to scale were it, if it weren't for the cultural movement of MAGA and et cetera?
Dave Morin: Well, but I'll actually go a step further, Dave, which is Truth Social got, because they had, "There's a type of content I want I can't get on the mainstream platforms," right? And the question's very simply for any platform. You have to provide something where like I'm coming here 'cause there's something I want that I fundamentally can't get anywhere else, and I don't... Like, there's value to, like, the ID registration, and, like, there's a lot of things, but, like, I don't... I have to play with how to, if there's anything to incept there. Like, it's easy for, like, like OnlyFans. Easy, right? You know what I mean? Like, I know exactly wh- I know exactly the content I'm gonna get everywhere else. You know, MAGA world. Easy. Like, I know what content I'm getting.
Guest: I think this carries that. I think this carries the idea that, like, I'm definitely talking to Americans. Like, I think that's really interesting.
Dave Morin: No, I understand. I think that's true. I just, there's a subtlety to, like, w- but what content does that generate? The medium is the message. Like, what is the thing I'm coming for other than, yes, I do want comments from real Americans. I'm actually quite interested in what real Americans say, right?
Guest: I mean, I think it fits into a important political narrative right now, right? Which is, like, who is American on the internet, right? Like, it fits into, like, the fact that, like, most of us interacting with algorithms on TikTok that are not controlled by Americans, people that aren't Americans, like, you know, this dovetails into the immigration conversation. I mean...
Dave Morin: I obviously deeply agree. I think the problem is, though, and, like, I think this is, like, the benefit and the problem is, like, I think every thinking person recognizes that if you truly had the American internet or, like, the French internet, this can be global in various ways, it'd be so much more moderate than what you get on Twitter, right? Like, it would, like, h- it would be so much more moderate because it turns out that-
Guest: I don't know about that.
Jessica: I mean, the human internet versus the bot and human internet is one thing, but I, I found it interesting that this goes back to TikTok. Both Dave and Sam, you guys feel this sort of nationalist, "I want to talk to Americans." Like, I understand wanting to talk to real smart people, but-
Guest: Well, Jess, it's twofold. It's not just talking to Americans. It's not being influenced by the, you know, nation state activities of external nations, right, inside of these networks. They're different things.
Dave Morin: You post, I post something, or, like, more extreme, like Joe Lonsdale or, like-
Guest: I just talked to Joe today
Dave Morin: ... I love Joe. So if Sean Maguire posts something, the amount of vitriol and hate that you get back on it is wild, right? And, like, you kind of look at it and you're like, "Look, this is, like, 95% bots."
Jessica: Y- but, uh, some of that vitriol and hate is from Americans, you know?
Dave Morin: But I'm not sure how much, and I'm actually not sure. I think it's actually way smaller than you realize, if that makes sense.
Jessica: So you're using it as a proxy for, like, a filter.
Dave Morin: Well, no one knows.
Guest: To double-click on this, I had not confronted the bot army recently. Until, a- as we talked about, I think, on the pod a few weeks ago, I spoke at this, uh, Dell World conference in Las Vegas, and they posted a video on their s- their account and tagged me. And the unbelievable backlash against AI that, like-
Dave Morin: Yeah
Guest: ... filled my Twitter feed for days on end. And every time I would click on one of them, it was, like, a short name. They were verified accounts, but they all had these, like, long set of numbers on the end of it, and it was very clearly bot-mediated. I don't know if it was computers or whether it's people in other countries, but there's very clearly an agenda happening here.
Dave Morin: Of course. And so the problem, the thing that I actually... I'm actually qui- DataCenter's a great example. I'm actually really curious how actual Americans think about this. You know what I mean? Like, and I'd actually be willing to engage with actual Americans on it. But you know what the dumbest thing in the world is? Fighting bot state actors on the internet and having flamewar. They're c- incredibly insane. Like, when you see people, like, responding to bots with, like, cogent arguments, you're like, that bot is literally just, like, wasting your time, like... And so, like, for me, like, that's the thing. It's like I, I really think there is a place for this type of conversation, but the thing I'm quite unsure about is, like, how do you spark more than intellectual interest in it, you know?
Guest: That's a good point.
Sam Lessin: I think you have to broker a deal with, uh, one of the social networks that claims you'll get more distribution if you sign up for this thing and verify.
Dave Morin: That is 100% what it should be. Like, there's no question that that's the way the world should work, and I only sort of understand why it doesn't work that way because it's not that hard to do anymore.
Guest: Or maybe partner with people who are running for president. Like, whoever's running for president, like, be the partner.
Dave Morin: So the other thing that I've been kind of playing with around Vox Americanas and what to do with it is to just be like, look, it actually shouldn't have its own... I mean, it can have a feed, whatever, but it really is more OAuth-y, and you would think of it as, like, a way to prove Americanness, right, and reality, and, like, auth a bunch of accounts and, like, who you actually are in scenarios that are social. I- there are ways you could think about that.
Guest: I love that.
Sam Lessin: Oh, that's what I thought it was going.
Dave Morin: Yeah, it's like you could do, like... I was thinking, Dave, you might like this. I was thinking about, like, okay, you know how, like, certain services, if you, like, wanna prove this is your Twitter account, you, like, post, like, the link, and then you, like, crawl it, and you basically create an index of actual Americans on Twitter. Like, is that the better strategy? Like, there's, there's a thing to play with. This is my 250th-
Guest: Or Tinder.
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Guest: I bet all the dating apps would want this, right?
Dave Morin: Yeah, you just create... You basically create a proxy layer.
Sam Lessin: Wait, can I tell you where I want this the most?
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: I want this on Amazon. I, I wanna filter to only American sellers on Amazon.
Guest: Only American sellers.
Sam Lessin: Yeah.
Guest: Yeah.
Dave Morin: Yeah, and look, I think for what it's worth, like, this scales globally. Like, uh, the f- I don't know what the French auth service is, but they should have the same thing. Like, we're in this era of, like, nationalism.
Guest: Yeah, for what it's worth, I'll take French sellers, Italian sellers, you know?
Sam Lessin: Yeah, I'll take all Europeans and Japanese-
Guest: All the highest quality places-
Sam Lessin: In America
Guest: ... where craftsmanship matters.
Dave Morin: And the, the reality is, is like this is completely against the original, like, one world open market blah, blah, blah thesis that, the utopian end-of-history shit, right?
Guest: I don't think it is, Sam. I think it's totally fair to want verification of identity and to understand, you know... Like, I remember growing up in Montana, there was a sticker that would- people would put onto the goods that they made in Montana that said, "Made in Montana." And Montana actually invested a lot in, you know, supporting those businesses and helping them grow. Like, it's really no different. Like, the internet is huge, global, and amazing. I mean, the speed at which OpenClaw is growing right now is blowing my mind, right? Like, the scale of the internet's enormous. But I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to understand who you're talking to or where a good is coming from.
Dave Morin: 100%. I just think, like, for me, like, the, the moment, especially 'cause vibe coding and a lot of this stuff is just ex- I mean, I actually... If you go to Vox Americanas and use it, it is actually f- pretty good. Like-
Guest: It's great
Dave Morin: ... you know, you can do video live recording. It's got a great NUX. It's, like, a pretty-
Guest: Better than Truth Social was at launch.
Dave Morin: It actually is pretty freaking good, and, like, the fact that I could, like, build that in a few days by, like, honestly on Boats, like, texting my, my, or emailing my bot for changes is, like, pretty sweet. And so, like, you g- I just think we're in this moment of, like, just stop arguing about this stuff and build things and, like, tinker and, like... I, I think that's, like, the most uplifting part about this AI is not, is the tinkering.
Guest: For what it's worth, to shift to a different topic, I think this is a really important thing that, um, Brit and I were on the phone yesterday with one of our founders. And this is a founder who spent years at Apple and Spotify in product roles interfacing with engineers. He's definitely has 10,000 hours working with engineers, right? 20 years of experience. Very talented founder. And it's interesting how much people who were not engineers believe they don't have the skill set to work in the world of agentic engineering now. And I found myself telling him, "You are more capable than you think today to do this," and that I think that people really don't realize how powerful the tools are and how much more powerful they've even become even in the last three months, and that they should just try it.
Dave Morin: Yeah, it's wild. So it's funny, I w- I distinctly remember last summer being at the same place we're at now and, like, being in Cursor and just, like, being like, "Oh my God, this stuff finally works," right? And, like, I compare that to now, and it's actually insane, right? Like, the level of abstraction you can work on, it's mind-blowingly different. Like, uh, you know, before I was, like, in a, like an NVC frameworks and editing file by file, and now I'm like, I don't need to do any of that. I literally sit here and email my infrastructure and spin up everything, right? And it's incredible. And so when you do that, you're just like, this is an age that is, like, perfect for tinkerers. And this has been, like, m- my most uplifting AI experience was running our bot school, right, where we basically took all of these social media influencers, people with big cults and followings. We sat them down. We gave them the tool chain, you know, how to use DigitalOcean, da, da, da, da, Really, and, like, it was amazing what they... It w- they, what they produced in 24 hours You know, I remember hackathons where like you come out and something would be half working in like a, you know, four days. Now you can come out in 24 hours, like products you can ship to your actual users and they're good. It's like wildly different, and I think that is the most uplifting part. The, like the mega wars, like who's got the cheapest way to multiply numbers is all kind of boring, but like the empowerment of people with like minimal shims to build entire e-worlds is like wild.
Sam Lessin: The thing I was gonna also say is, in that conversation yesterday with this founder Dave's talking about, what it came down to at the end too, you know, he's trying to recruit his like founding engineer. Everyone's a great e- a lot of people are great engineers. You know, of course some are better than others, fine. But cultural fit I think matters way more now than ever before, when like the, the ability to be a, a great engineer is like much easier than ever before. And so it's like teaching these people how to be human, maybe a little throwback to etiquette school, but also like having street smarts, being a cool person, high integrity, like vibing with the team, I think is, is going to matter more than ever over the next few years for teams.
Dave Morin: Yeah, I completely agree. It's a wild moment. It's a great moment. I, it's really, this stuff is the fun stuff.
Guest: I think it's important to note that it's just not too late. Like, that's what, talking to this founder, I was shocked by how he's like, "Isn't it too late?" And I'm like, "No." Like, the skill set of this new style of engineering is a brand new skill set that, you know, it's like as if it used to be you had to speak a language that a compiler could understand. You no longer have to speak a language that a compiler has to understand. Now you just have to be able to speak a language that the models can understand, and the models go speak compiler. And the compiler speaks to the assembler, the assembler speaks to machine language, and like everything's, it's like amazing, and it's a totally new skill set, and you're not too late. And though we talk about this a lot on the pod, we also, you know, I hear from people every week that listen to the pod that are entrepreneurs thinking about starting something, and I just think it's really important for people to hear that you're, you're totally capable, and it's definitely not too late. And take an hour a day and just really try to learn this stuff, because everyone's learning it right now.
Dave Morin: Although I don't think, so I, I agree with everything you said except for one thing. I don't think you take an hour a day. I think you binge it for like as much time as you can.
Guest: Well, Sam, I'm saying if you've got another job, if you're doing something else, right? Like, try to find, it's like learning guitar or something. You gotta find time to practice every day in order to make progress. Sure, if you can take your, if you can really binge into it, go for it. But, you know.
Sam Lessin: Except for please stay human, because I really think we're entering the, I know we're already in the loneliness epidemic because of social media, but this is entering this new scary, dark place, I think, where people are alone with their agents up at all hours, not having community and real social conversation, and I'm like really actually worried about it.
Jessica: I am gonna play the normie on this. I like my agent. It's useful for work. I don't believe we are all headed for a future where we all need to be vibe coders.
Dave Morin: I'm somewhere in the middle.
Guest: We know it's your opinion. We had that argument two weeks ago.
Sam Lessin: Sam wasn't there, though. Sam didn't get to weigh in on that.
Jessica: I would l- I just want the listeners to know that. I think that, you know, we're in this exciting early adopter moment. There's a lot... That doesn't mean I think AI won't touch everyone. It doesn't mean that I don't think AI is like transformative.
Sam Lessin: It's gonna become invisible is the thing that I said before, which I still stand by, which is like you won't have to be at your computer vibe coding all night, but like AI and agents will be doing stuff for you no matter what.
Jessica: Cool. But that's fine. That doesn't mean that I have to devote two hours of my day to vibe coding or I'm gonna be left behind.
Dave Morin: I think it's somewhere in the middle. I, I, I, it's pretty powerful stuff. We'll see. It's gonna be an interesting era. I think w- for now it's super fun if you have business problems you're trying to solve. I mean, Dave's line on you're not too late I think is a really, really important one. I actually hilariously started, 'cause it's the summer, I'm gonna write like a short Sam book that I've kind of outlined on like what I've learned from the investments I've made, and one of the chapters is called You're Not Too Late. 'Cause I think it's a mistake even on investing I've continuously made, and like I've gotten a few things right where like there's this class of investments that where you're like, "Well, I've seen this for two years. I can't believe I missed it. I loved it, but I'm too late." And like, it just turns out you're not, right? And like I think that's like one of my, that's one of my chapters in the book I wanna write this summer.
Sam Lessin: Well, that's because we're seed investors. If, if we like broke ourselves of that mentality, I think we would learn that faster.
Jessica: Speaking of bots, I did log into mine today to see Fable 5 is back. So for those of y- good marketing from Anthropic. They have reached a deal with the United States government.
Dave Morin: What incredible marketing. Well done.
Jessica: It's great marketing. Until July 7th, you can use up to 50% of your plan's weekly usage limit on Fable 5.
Guest: Which is interesting, actually. They're basically like, you know, after that you gotta pay by token, which is interesting.
Jessica: What if I don't, I, the kind of stuff I'm doing, I definitely don't need Fable 5 for.
Dave Morin: You never know. That's actually the whole business model. The beauty of the whole thing is you're almost certainly right, Jessica, but what if? The entire margin of the industry is based on people asking the question like, "Look, I'm asking you to fold my fuck..." And then fold laundry is a funny one. I'm asking you to like make a dinner reservation. I can, a IQ 100 person can do it, but do I need to hire an IQ 170 person to make the dinner reservation on the off chance it matters? Like, that is the margin of the system, and like we'll see how that plays out.
Jessica: I definitely don't need Fable 5, but it's back. This back and forth with the government is wild, I think. And you know, for those who forgot, this is, Fable 5 was released along with Mythos. In this case, Amazon raised d- some doubts about some ability for it to be jailbroken. Anthropic essentially said it's no more vulnerable than other things. Amazon isn't as smart as us, and it got into this whole back and forth, but it's out now. There's some security thing Anthropic added. But like it, we're just gonna see this for every single model release. Yes. It's weird. Isn't it weird? Do we-- I don't know, how do we feel about this? I don't feel great about it.
Guest: About what?
Sam Lessin: Eh, eh. That we need the government to sign off on models?
Guest: About what-- Uh, feel great about what specific, what specifically?
Jessica: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, on one hand, I like that there's someone checking out for the safety of these models. But it also... The whole process plays out in a way where it seems like they strike a deal when it's, like, politically worse to not have a deal. I don't actually believe that, like, if there was a problem, there isn't still a problem or... Y- you know, like, it just seems like it's all been very politicized. Uh, you have Susie Wiles, the chief of staff to Trump, being like, "We're so glad Fable 5's back." Like, what a surreal thing to see. Like, the chief of staff of the president weighing in on a model release. It's weird. That's all I gotta say.
Guest: The question is whether it's all just kayfabe. You know? Like, it's like a fight to create drama to entertain the people, and that this was the plan all along. You know? It's, like, very good for America to be like, "This model's so dangerous. We must check and make sure best model is in America."
Jessica: Yeah, I get it.
Guest: "We need to have the most powerful models everyone fear," right? Like, this is, this is a very good political message, and it enables us to continue raising capital for even more dangerous model, right? And et cetera. So that's, like, the other way to look at it.
Dave Morin: I mean, the thing, like, I- I think it's clearly trust destroying. That's obvious.
Jessica: Trust with what, though, Sam?
Dave Morin: Just, like, trust in institutions. Like, it's just like everyone's like, "What the fuck? I don't even wanna pay attention anymore." Like, next time someone says a model's so great, it's whatever, I'm like, "Whatever, I don't care."
Guest: Totally.
Dave Morin: So, like, it's clearly institutional trust destroying. There's good marketing value to it 'cause it's, like, spicy, right? In various ways. People can spin that. The thing that I don't know, and I'm curious what your guys' take on, is, like, how intuitive versus intentional it is, right? Like-
Jessica: Yeah
Dave Morin: ... and this is the thing I don't know about a lot of things these days. Like, you know, there's the other stuff that's happening in the marketing and the narratives construction, whatever, and, like, part of me is like, "This is the most brilliant strategy I've ever seen," and part of me is like, "This is no strategy. This is just, like, how it..." You know what I mean? Like, and I just don't know with a lot of these things, like, which of the two categories it really is, you know? Is it brilliant, or is it just intuitive?
Jessica: I mean, that's the question we may never know. I have a related question, was it seems like the knives are out for Anthropic and OpenAI as it relates to, like, other tech companies and customers. So my latest example is, um, Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir, kinda went ape shit against them on CNBC this morning.
Guest: Really?
Jessica: And he was a little bit unhinged. I haven't actually watched the full interview.
Sam Lessin: But that's normal for him, right?
Jessica: No, but more so, so much so that it, it's worth watching. I, I didn't watch the whole thing yet. But his upshot is, like, everyone hates these guys.
Dave Morin: But this is why we need Vox Americanas, 'cause we have no idea. Like, we don't actually know if these companies are hated or it's all bots.
Jessica: No, but Alex Karp is saying that. So again, this isn't a case of, like, Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir, partner to both of these companies in a deep way, although I think Anthropic more, is saying on CNBC that everybody hates them.
Dave Morin: But I understand he-- But, but, but, but th- there's a key distinction. He's not saying he hates them, he's saying everybody hates them. And you're like, "Well, what everybody? Is it the Twitter everybody?" 'Cause, like, that's true, but, like, what y- what is that? Who are those people?
Jessica: Yeah. I, I don't actually know all the answers to these questions, but it's also-
Guest: Twitter, I, I mean, if it's Twitter, it's mostly men and bots, right?
Jessica: I d- I don't think it's Twitter. I, I, I think it's also their partners and other tech companies and developers who are using cheaper models. Dave, you're a fan. I mean, you were... Is, was it a Fireworks model you were talking about?
Guest: No, no, no. GLM 5.2.
Jessica: Okay. Tell the p- people more about it. I know we've talked about it, but...
Guest: Yeah, I mean, we talked about it a bit last week, but, you know, GLM 5.2 is really good. You know, I think we saw this in our back channel.
Jessica: Who makes it?
Sam Lessin: Yeah, explain what GLM is.
Guest: GLM 5.2 is a model made by a Chinese company called Z.ai, and they're one of the foundation model companies in China. And this model is open source. It's a trillion parameter model. And everyone that I've been interacting with, and many people across the Open Cloud community, are switching it out for Opus 4.8, and they don't notice a difference. And so we're actually, I think we, as of last week or, say, the week before, this is, you know, I'm speaking to you from the first week of July, we're at a point in this evolutionary history of AI models where the open source models and the frontier models are neck and neck in terms of, uh, your ability to use them for the same purposes, uh, same tasks, and not tell the difference, right? We had somebody in one of our back channel conversations over the weekend who's a friend of ours that runs a big incubator and venture firm in San Francisco who said they, you know, they swapped out GLM 5.2 on all of their agents and nobody on their team noticed. And I'm hearing this across the board. So I think it's an important moment, you know, to sort of pause and say, "What does that mean?"
Jessica: So why don't these m- models have more market share?
Guest: I mean, it's three weeks old.
Jessica: Yeah. Fair.
Dave Morin: Well, I just think this is the moment that we've been talking about forever and, like, why we're kind of skeptical on companies trying to charge premium amounts of money to multi- through multiplication. And, like, look, I think there'll be a fight back. I think a lot of it will be political. People will say, "I don't want my numbers multiplied in China or with Chinese..." Like, uh, this is like, this is a ne- gonna be a never-ending story. But the question of, like, where the fundamental margin is in these things is, like, the however trillion dollar company, right? Is there margin in them? Because if, if at the most basic, if it's like, yeah, some people got really smart at mul- multiplying numbers, but everyone's gonna figure it out, and it's just a metal and, you know, and like power thing, that's a very hard global race, you know? Nothing new here, just happening.
Guest: No, yeah. I mean, it's nothing new. We've been, we've been talking about it on the pod. You could go back, you know, literally hundreds of episodes talking about this. But I think it's, the moment is here that you can now make the choice. Like, b- if you're a business owner and you're trying to make a decision on your CapEx in terms of should we put CapEx into buying bare metal servers, you know, a stack of B200s costs around half a million dollars, and then run GLM 5.2 for infinity number of tokens at the cost of power. You know, that trade-off is now real between, you know, am I going to put some sophisticated router in place that routes the, all of my employees' token usage to the correct model to optimize the, you know, the token usage, uh, on the frontier. You know, I think that choice is happening. Um, I also talked to another one of our friends that runs a hedge fund, um, in New York. You know, I think if you look at NVIDIA, you know, rent, spot rental on, on NVIDIA servers is down like 22% week over week the last couple of weeks. Um, but all of the capital is shifting to buying actual raw metal, right? And so I think you're just seeing this thing happen, which is the CFOs in all these businesses are saying, "I want to understand the exact cost of this, of this part of our business, and I don't want it flying out of control like it did in Q1 of 2026." And so like, go spend the money on the servers and get me GLM 52, and we're switching over to that.
Dave Morin: I'd say two things on this, Dave. I, I mean, I directionally completely agree. One is I think that the tweet is, like, the CFOs are back in control, right? And like, uh, this has shifted from the early days. Like, i- in, in the advertising world, there was always the experimental budgets where there were no rules, and so everyone's like, "Yeah, use whatever you want." And like, really small companies can subsist on experimental budgets. The second it becomes core spend, it's a very different pocket and process, and like we're moving from, like, this was all experimental bullshit, it went way out of hand into core spend. The second is I actually happened, shockingly, to talk to two very large companies today, public company CTOs, and this idea that, like, obviously we're gonna use all the models and switch between them, it's not even avant-garde. You know what I mean? Like, there isn't like, "Ooh, well maybe I'll be a Claude shop." Like, no one... Like, that's, like, a ridiculous thing to assert right now, right? Everyone's like, "Yeah, of course we're using everything, and of course we're figuring out how to minimize our costs and switch it." Like, that would be stupid to not do, right? Which then just means, like, this is a race for efficiency. And, you know, it, I think Jessica's team reported something like, you know, OpenAI can do inference at half the cost. Like, that's the race. And like by the way, if they can do that and no one else can, God bless, they're gonna be a huge company. But if they can do that for a month and everyone catches them, then it's a worthless thing. You know what I mean? And like, that's gonna be the real question.
Jessica: So why is Anthropic's revenue still ripping?
Dave Morin: 'Cause there's so many people in the world.
Sam Lessin: Anthropic, like, started getting more and more hype in Q1. I think things got viral. They've done a great job of marketing. A lot of these businesses that, like, were in the spot we were at in, like, Q4, Q1 are just getting that marketing hit to them now. But to Sam's point, I think the smarter these businesses get, and after one or two quarters of experimentation, people are gonna be like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We need a router. We need, you know, to figure all this out. Maybe it's open source, maybe it's, like, buy metal." And, and I think you'll start to see the revenue shifting, uh, quite a bit over the next six to 12 months.
Dave Morin: For what it's worth, I do think the open source router world will be quite interesting because people aren't stupid, right? And so being like, the stupid... Th- the, everyone... One-on-one it's like, "Well, clearly we need a router." And you're like, well, someone's gonna release a closed source router, and you're just playing this game of Russian dolls where you're like, "Well, that's dumb. I'm not gonna use a closed source router." Like, everyone's gonna want control. And so if there was ever a place to build a really powerful company, it would be open source routing, I think.
Jessica: Okay. There we go.
Dave Morin: If you have an open source router company that's good, then call me. Not closed source.
Jessica: We are banned from our final topic of the Taylor Swift wedding because some people on the call know too much. That's all I'm gonna say.
Sam Lessin: Well, I think we should at least acknowledge... I think we need to acknowledge it's happening. There's a lot of speculation. By the time the pod rolls out, it will be the day, the Taylor Swift wedding day, and-
Jessica: And some people on this pod are gonna then lick the cookie.
Sam Lessin: And some of us will lick the cookie if we were right or not.
Jessica: I'm just gonna say-
Sam Lessin: That's all
Jessica: ... guys, I don't feel like this needs royal wedding treatment. I really don't. As a fan, and I understand the whole thing, I think this is just too much. I think it's too much.
Guest: Why?
Jessica: Why, why do we need an American royal wedding? Why?
Guest: She's probably bigger than Princess Diana was back then, isn't she?
Sam Lessin: She's definitely bigger. Sure, yeah, than William and Kate for Americans.
Jessica: But why? Like, she doesn't need to do this. She's choosing to do this.
Sam Lessin: I don't think she's choosing to do this. I think the media has taken on a life of its own around this. I don't think she's trying to put any of this out.
Guest: But I think that's the acknowledgement. I think that's why it is what it is probably, is that, like, that she has no choice.
Jessica: Guys, she gets to control every... But I, again, and no one wants to hear us have this argument, so we will end it, but the whole thing and the mastery of her is that she stays in control, and she's always released things on her terms and dropped the hints. And, and one of the things you love about her is she is this mastermind of storytelling and the narratives around her whole thing. So I just don't buy that all that goes out of the window, and, "Oh, woe is me, she has no..." ... choice but to give the people what they want and get m- right at Madison Square Garden. She's always in control. I can't think of a public figure that is more in control. And so she's choosing this, and I think it's weird.
Sam Lessin: I can't wait to debrief this next week, maybe on our own separate special episode of the Pop Culture, Pop Culture More or Less.
Jessica: We have a whole other thread on this, thank God.
Sam Lessin: Oh, guys, our kids did Alpha School last week, the AI school, you know?
Jessica: Really? S- tell us more, Brit.
Sam Lessin: Yeah. Well, okay, I will say I've been very excited about Alpha School. The premise for those who don't know it-
Jessica: Wait, this is like a summer school? Like, you've moved the kids...
Sam Lessin: Well, they have Alpha Camp in summer, but it's effectively just a trial week at their school program. And the program is such, the first two hours of the day, each kid gets a laptop. The laptop evaluates exactly how smart they are at each subject, and then figures out exactly how to get them to, like, an 80% success rate every single day. And, and they play games. So it's like instead of math, they're doing a math game, but they're getting, like, 20% wrong, and they're slowly, like, growing their skills and teaching them in all these different courses and, um, parts of academics. Then the rest of the day, six hours, is, like, workshops and fun stuff, and, like, entrepreneurship, financial literacy. Like, our, our 10-year-old learned how to suture a wound, like s- with stitches. Um, they built apps. They did smart greenhouses. They played with micro:bits. They built, like, catapults.
Jessica: Okay, so you're pro or con? Pro or con?
Sam Lessin: Actually, slightly con.
Jessica: Okay. Give it to us.
Sam Lessin: So I, I think this is the future framework for education. I think there's still, like, rough around the edges. I've heard every Alpha School's a little bit different. Um, however, what I really did like is that on the parent side, you get a dashboard every day of, like, their performance and stuff. I... Which could be a blessing or a curse. It's like tiger parents were definitely gonna love this. And, like, of course, I fed mine right into my agent and had it about, like, because I feed every report card, and I have, like, a whole, like, framework for how each of my kids is, like, growing with their education. So I think it could be bad too, because sometimes you just gotta let kids be kids and, like, learn things a little bit more on the fly. Um, I will say for our A- like, more ADD kid, he actually preferred the AI, like, screen-based learning because it wasn't a voice where, that was teaching to the whole class where he felt a little bit more anxious, um, and less focused. So anyway, it was a good experiment. I think there's something there. I think it's a little early. And if I were a seed investor, I would invest, but I, I think I'm gonna participate more at the series A, to give it a good analogy.
Jessica: Well said. That's a good one. On that note of actually something useful, we will end this week's More or Less pod. Wishing everyone a, uh, happy 250th.
Dave Morin: I mean, that is the thing. America is 250 years old. That's awesome.
Jessica: Sam likes to say this may be our last consequential birthday. Would you like to elaborate on that, Sam?
Dave Morin: Well, you know, like, the world's moving so quickly.
Sam Lessin: You don't think we're gonna make it to multi-thousands of years?
Dave Morin: I don't know. Like, what is Am- America at 300 will be in our 90s.
Sam Lessin: Yeah, but we're gonna live to be infinity.
Jessica: Oh, you mean, you mean our, like, as in us, us humans.
Sam Lessin: Clearly you don't subscribe to the longevity thesis, Sam.
Dave Morin: Well, no, even if I do, it's just math. As long as we don't screw up physics, we'll be in our 90s. That doesn't mean... Like, what we look like in our 90s is a separate question, but, like, we're gonna be in our 90s. And, like, I don't know. Could you imagine, like, I don't know, the United Federation of Western States or some shit by then? Like, I don't... I mean, I hope it's not where we go. Like, will we, we gonna get another Lincoln out of this? Like, what's gonna happen when, like, someone tries to liberate the robots? I... 50 years is a long time. By the way, have you seen-
Sam Lessin: Gonna be interesting
Dave Morin: ... have you seen the, the Clanker videos on Instagram?
Sam Lessin: No.
Dave Morin: Speaking of-
Sam Lessin: No
Dave Morin: ... speaking of the Civil War?
Sam Lessin: Oh, God.
Dave Morin: They're hilarious.
Sam Lessin: Is it like I, Robot?
Dave Morin: No. It's basically, like, imagine a guy dressed as Colonel Sanders with all of these Clankers, which are his robots, doing his things, and, like, his son coming in and being like, "You can't treat the robots this way." They're really funny. I highly recommend looking up Clanker on Instagram.
Sam Lessin: Okay.
Dave Morin: Which is, like, the... It's good.
Sam Lessin: We'll do that.
Dave Morin: It's good.
Sam Lessin: We'll do that for our 4th of July weekend.
Jessica: Okay. Well, a very happy 4th. Have fun. Stay safe. And we'll see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Goodbye.
Sam Lessin: Bye, guys. If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes, and follow us on social media by searching for @moreorless, @davemorin, @lesson, @jlesson, and as for me, I'm @brit. See you guys next time.