#158 — AI Regulatory Capture Bet: Why OpenAI & Anthropic Stopped Competing on Tech
July 17, 2026 · Listen · All episodes · Chat with the show's AI
Jessica Lessin, Dave Morin, Brit Morin and Sam Lessin debate the tech of the week.
Full transcript (AI-generated — may contain transcription errors):
Sam Lessin: If the plan was we, America, we need to take our military and bomb every matrix multiplication facility globally, and we're gonna have all of them, and then we're gonna control AI. That would at least be logical.
Dave Morin: One thing that is different today, Wednesday, July 15th, is that America now has at least one open weights model that just went out the door.
Brit Morin: I'm convinced women should be microdosing psilocybin.
Guest: More or less. Is it no or is it yes? We'll debate the tech that's best. Do we get more or less? Raven, Brit, plus Sam and Jess. Put it all right to the test. More or less.
Jessica: Why, hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less: Deep Summer Edition. We're deep summer.
Brit Morin: Is this the deepest of summer, or is that like late July?
Jessica: I don't know. When is peak summer?
Dave Morin: When is the deep summer?
Jessica: It also, it depends where you are.
Brit Morin: When do most people vacation?
Dave Morin: It is kind of right around now. This is pretty much the middle, right?
Brit Morin: Sure. I don't know. Not if you're European.
Jessica: Yeah, not if you're East Coast.
Brit Morin: It's... Yeah, East Coast is August.
Dave Morin: I'm saying, like, if you go back to school in the middle of August, then July 15th is pretty much the middle.
Brit Morin: But East Coasters go back middle of September, so that's the difference.
Dave Morin: Oh, they do?
Jessica: Okay. But we're West Coasters, so happy deep summer.
Dave Morin: What is wrong with West Coast?
Jessica: Uh, well, we get out earlier. We're here. There's news, a little bit. Let's not pretend there's a lot of news, guys. There's not a lot of news. TI TV turned one. That was big news this week.
Dave Morin: Oh, congrats.
Brit Morin: Congrats.
Jessica: Woo-hoo. Thank you. Thank you. We made it. Keep on going. We've got some AI headlines. We should talk hardware, new models.
Brit Morin: Potential acquisitions happening.
Jessica: Potential acquisitions. I feel like the acquisition... It, it's always hard because the bankers just want you to think the acquisition's already around the corner, but I think they're clo- I, I think we're gonna see a lot. People are gonna throw in the towel and take the valuation. But you guys are the actual investors. What do you, what do you have cooking? Tell us about all your deals.
Dave Morin: Never happening.
Brit Morin: I have a number of companies that are in M&A processes. So I do think there are real acquisitions that are gonna happen. There you go. Finally. Remember, we've been doing this pod so long, and then we're like the, the first like year or two is like so dry out there in the M&A world. And every year I kept predicting, "This is the year M&A is gonna happen." But here we are, 2026.
Jessica: Here we are. So what's catalyzing it, Brit? Why now? Without telling us which people.
Brit Morin: Well, I think, like, there are real IPOs happening. There is real liquidity happening. The AI races have never been hotter.
Dave Morin: What real IPO are you talking about?
Brit Morin: Okay. There are narrative IPOs happening. There are AI races happening.
Jessica: No, Anthropic is a real IPO, guys. Even OpenAI is a real-ish IPO. Real-ish.
Dave Morin: What? Really?
Brit Morin: The valuations of these IPOs are not real.
Dave Morin: These companies are actually gonna go public this year, Jess?
Jessica: Uh, Anthropic will go public. I, I would be shocked if they're not public in September. Yeah.
Dave Morin: Really?
Brit Morin: Yeah, same.
Jessica: I'd be very surprised. Yeah.
Brit Morin: Agree. Yeah, and OpenAI is gonna follow.
Jessica: They might wait until next year.
Dave Morin: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the SpaceX IPO would pause on that for me if I was either of them.
Brit Morin: I don't know. It was fine.
Jessica: But Anthropic is a real company.
Dave Morin: Really?
Brit Morin: None of them are real companies that warrant the valuations they have.
Jessica: What? Guys, Anthropic, if you look at its revenue, profitability, growth rate, it's a real company. Why, why do you say it isn't, Dave? I may disagree with some of the decisions they make, but why do you think it's not a real company?
Dave Morin: Well, we've talked about it as nauseam. I mean, these companies are burning enormous amounts of capital. Like, they're, they're not profitable.
Jessica: But Anthropic is profitable.
Dave Morin: On which metrics?
Jessica: Uh, actually, on like the good GAAP ones, I think, not just the-
Brit Morin: On the good metrics, not the bad metrics.
Jessica: Yeah. No, I think they are. But to highlight your point, you think the numbers still don't add up ultimately, and maybe that they can't sustain this revenue growth, that kind of thing.
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah.
Dave Morin: Yeah. We'll see.
Jessica: Sam, you're very quiet. What do you think?
Sam Lessin: I'm just looking at OpenAI's hardware. Oh, it's supply... What is SupplyCo with OpenAI? Is there, is this their thing?
Dave Morin: The Codex thing? It's just a, it's, it's, it's merch. It's not hardware.
Sam Lessin: Oh, this is... Is it, it's basically the easy button?
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: Is this the easy button?
Dave Morin: Yes.
Sam Lessin: Just like-
Dave Morin: Yes
Sam Lessin: ... for 2026?
Dave Morin: Yes. Yes.
Sam Lessin: Got it. So it's like a Staples play.
Dave Morin: Yeah, it's just merch.
Sam Lessin: I think everyone's out securing their bags before it all falls apart.
Dave Morin: Yep.
Sam Lessin: That's what's happening.
Dave Morin: I agree.
Jessica: What signs are you seeing that it's all gonna fall apart?
Sam Lessin: Well, there's no new... As Dave said, this is the same shit we've been saying forever. It's just everyone now is saying it in the open and out loud, right? Which is that none of this stuff makes sense, which people are saying out loud, and everyone's gonna race for the bag. Sell your company. Doesn't... Wherever you can. Get the cash. Yeah, I'm seeing people sell a bunch of companies, and I, I don't think it's wrong. I think they should. Um, the, uh... Is Anthropic a real company? You look at... I, I give them credit. If you can actually do an EBITDA multiple on it, I give them credit for that. Then yes, they're a real company. But the, the... I, I'll go back to the Bob lesson definition of a real company as my dad. And a real company is very simple. A real company is a company you can sue, and you get paid if you win the lawsuit. So-
Dave Morin: Interesting
Sam Lessin: ... I think they're real companies.
Jessica: Okay. I like it. I like it. Okay. But everyone's getting super nervous for all the reasons we've been talking about every week.
Dave Morin: Yeah. This isn't new. It's not like something changed week over week.
Jessica: Well, well, Dave, we do do this podcast weekly, so dig deep and find something to say.
Brit Morin: We have to keep plotting our chart, Dave, to make sure we're all moving in the same direction week over week towards the top of the bubble.
Jessica: Here's something that's changed. Brit's tweets about AI have changed.
Brit Morin: What?
Jessica: I've noticed a change in the tenor of them.
Brit Morin: Ooh, what does that mean?
Dave Morin: Here's the other thing, which I'll just say this, the OpenAI's 5.6 Sol is clearly superior to Fable. Like, there's nobody that, nobody serious doesn't agree. And the open source models are Less than two months behind. You know, I've switched out GLM 5.2 for almost every utilitarian use case that matters in any of my agents, because why would I pay for, you know, frontier intelligence to do all utility use cases? Like, it just doesn't make sense when GLM 5.2 is actually frontier intelligence and it's insanely cheap. So of course I'm gonna use that. Why would I pay more?
Sam Lessin: Are you saying you're going with discount multiplying big numbers?
Dave Morin: Yes, I am. I like discount multiplying big numbers.
Jessica: Oh, this is what you tweeted, Brit. You tweeted that the Moore household is now gone from token maxing to token budgeting.
Brit Morin: Yeah. It's not negative about AI.
Dave Morin: No, it's such a sensational headline.
Brit Morin: It's not sensational.
Jessica: That was her X post. It wasn't headlined. Your own wife put that on the internet.
Dave Morin: No, I know.
Brit Morin: I put it because I'm using all these models. It was a lot.
Dave Morin: How much is your household spending on tokens?
Brit Morin: I'm just gonna say it was a lot. I don't... I mean, Dave keeps some secret credit cards from me, so I don't know. I mean, there's like the real answer and then what I think is the answer. But I mean, even my own, I was like, "Oh my gosh, how, how am I spending all this money?" 'Cause I have to t- I'm testing all of them. I'm on like every m- you know, playing with all this stuff all the time. And so I've done some consolidation, and I'm really proud of my financial cleanup work.
Jessica: So who are the losers in the consolidation?
Dave Morin: Anthropic.
Brit Morin: Yeah, probably Anthropic.
Dave Morin: No question. I mean, those turns, those agent turns were being done by, you know, Opus 4.6 or Opus 4.7 or Sonnet 4, Sonnet 5, and there's no point in paying for those turns anymore when you can get the same quality from GLM 5.2.
Sam Lessin: Well, okay-
Dave Morin: It's-
Sam Lessin: ... but just, just to play devil's advocate to that, like I obviously broadly agree with you, right? Like broadly. But I also just like don't care about any of this. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, it's not that expensive. And like my view is like I just use whatever, and like I'm not switching 'cause I just don't care about the money. It's not enough to matter.
Dave Morin: But Sam, that might be your opinion, but like enterprises do care, and we are speaking to a lot of people running enterprises.
Sam Lessin: Of course, and that's fine, and I'm happy for you to interrupt me anytime you want. But the, um, you, the... Obviously enterprises are not gonna operate that way, and as they go from experimental budgets to whatever, they'll be like figuring this stuff out and optimizing it, sure. I will say on a purely personal base though, the reason... If, if the pro-Anthropic or model whatever argument, the argument is this: paying 10 bucks for something, and let's pretend even 1% of the time it doesn't fuck it up or it comes back and asks, it doesn't ask me a stupid clarifying question, I'll pay for it, right? Like, there is this like veil of like I don't care, it's not that expensive, whatever, and like even if it's only gonna save me one email once a month, whatever. You know what I mean? So I do think there's no like... And that's gonna be the interesting nexus here about like trust and accuracy around open sources. Anyone at scale, like this whole story like obviously there's gonna be massive pricing pressure on multiplying big numbers, and I totally agree with Dave, and we've been saying this I think as long as anyone, I think we all have, which is like you're just multiplying big numbers. Open source is, has caught up. It will be where the volume is. It's a volume game. These are r- monopoly... I'm sorry. These are utilities with none of the financial benefits of being utilities, which is why they're all in Washington trying to like put up trade barriers and like get ex- you know, blah, blah, blah. We get that. But I will say the only counterargument to all that is in scenarios where like you're not 100% sure what the answer should look like, right? Or there's real return on it being slightly more accurate, and you just don't care about the cost. You'd rather save another back and forth to clarify something. And I will say like I, I moved my infrastructure up to Fable. I only did it just now, like I literally haven't upgraded 'cause it hasn't been relevant, but I finally was like, eh, I just told my bot over email, I was like, "Just start using Fable instead of Opus whatever." And it did, and I'm like, "Oh, this actually is a little better. That's cool." Like, it's not like gonna change my life, but like it did one or two smart things. That's fine. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of the vibe I'm at at this point, if that makes sense, which is like it's not exciting, it's not important, but it's fine.
Dave Morin: Which I think that sentiment, Sam, kind of matters to-
Sam Lessin: No, I agree. I think that, but that's the, that's the point of the curve we're at.
Dave Morin: The business question we're asking is does the revenue ramp continue to look like this over the next year? And I think that the sentiment that you're referring to actually matters, which is that it's kind of all just boring. Like, they don't move forward that much every time.
Sam Lessin: Well, I think it's kind of like imagine you have like... It, it's just like I go back to you gotta use human analogies. It's like, look, you all were, we were all talking to like high school students, and then we were talking to college students, and we're like, "Oh, these college students, I'd rather talk to them than the high school students. They seem better." And then we all started talking to like PhD students. We're like, "Oh, these PhD students, these grad students seem smarter than the college students. Good." And now we're at the point where we're like, all right, well, maybe there's like a PhD student who's getting an A versus a B in some class, and like if I really care about specifically that one topic and that one scenario, God bless that they're now getting an A versus a B, but I'm actually asking it to fucking fold laundry and the college kid can do it, right? And like that's kind of where we're at, you know? And like it's fine. Like, I'm glad... Like, people should keep making slightly smarter PhD students, but it's not gonna like change anyone's life.
Jessica: Okay. Brit, what do you think?
Brit Morin: This is back to my evolution, not revolution that I brought up last week, which is I agree. I'm like, it's fine, it's cool. I mean, I've been using Fable in the past week to do some interesting things. I think it's like failed less at getting things wrong, so that's good. But like, I don't know, Demis was posting this whole thing today about AGI yet again, and how we need a standards body to review all the models and all these different things. And then I was like, is AGI... Like he's... Is AGI really years away? Is this really happening? And I know we debate this a lot, but
Sam Lessin: Well, just to me, AGI is a meaningless term at this point. It doesn't mean anything. It's just like computers.
Jessica: Well, let's... I wanna pivot us a little bit to, because we'll, we'll go nowhere on this topic, which is a good topic. But okay, w- I'm hearing more buzz about real regulatory action around open source because of the issue you-
Dave Morin: Open source or open weights, Jess?
Jessica: Open source, right? So like folks inside the government saying, "Okay, we've a problem here." Anthropic and OpenAI are worried about the Chinese models undercutting them. At the same time, like objectively as a country, if you're worried about national security, you're not thrilled with everyone going to the Chinese models. At the same time, if the Chinese models are also advancing more rapidly because they're distilling the US frontier models, that doesn't seem great for protecting intellectual property in the US. So it, it seems to me like, like whether or not something happens is up to the Washington gods and goddesses. But like it, there's clearly... Dave, like you've now said for weeks, you've talked about GLM and all these things. Like I- do you think the US will let this situation just continue to exist? I mean, I-
Sam Lessin: It depends how good OpenAI and Anthropic are at lobbying to create margin for themselves.
Jessica: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: That's what it comes down to. This is what I don't like about our moment in history, is I don't think we're playing capitalism anymore. Like, I think we're playing some like, like political capture game that is way less interesting than capitalism, right? And so that sucks, right? And like we should compete in fair and open markets as much as possible, and the best team should win and whatever. And, and like now we're just in this game of like people, which is again, it's, it's sto- it's been stories for a while. AI is scary, blah, blah, like all these types of things. But now we've kind of moved to a new version of the game, which feels much more desperate, right? Which is like, man, we better like get some regulatory capture going, 'cause otherwise we're in trouble.
Jessica: Sam, what's your point of view on what the state of play with... And, and Dave, you finish your point and I want your point of view on this question too, but like what is, uh, in the US interest with regards to these open source Chinese models, though? Like, uh, yes, it would be regulatory capture if-
Sam Lessin: I don't think it's Chinese. I think it's just, that's, that's like too specific, right? It's just open source, right? Like in broadly. Like look, this goes back to like years ago, I used to hate on GDPR constantly, and specifically-
Jessica: Yes
Sam Lessin: ... this thing called the right to be forgotten, which is one of the dumbest laws ever written. Because you're like, how the hell are you gonna enforce that? Like you can't, it's like it makes no sense, right? Like, like from an intellectual, it's not how the internet works. It's like, you know, people used to make T-shirts with encryption algo- encryption, we can go back further. In the early internet, there was this big argument about whether encryption technology was a weapon and whether it could be exported from the US legally or not. And then all these like hackers would like literally just put encryption algorithms on T-shirts and walk around, 'cause they're so simple. It's like you can't stop this from moving cross border, right? And so the basic point with all this stuff again is like it, it's one thing if you're just like, okay, like the Chinese models are bad and like we're gonna put up a trade embargo on like copying like Chinese mo- using Chinese models from China, but we're gonna do it in the US. Like that, none of that's how the internet works. Like that's not how-
Jessica: Yeah
Sam Lessin: ... this shit works, right?
Jessica: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: And like, so to me, like, and weirdly enough, I mean, there's even like a weird argument about, oh, would you stop American open source models 'cause that's technically our domain for me to develop, but not the Chinese one 'cause that'll cause a trade war. Like that's insane, right? Like all this shit's just insane and doesn't map to how like capitalism or like the internet works, right? And that's what I object to.
Jessica: Is there a path back or what? I mean, it, I agree with everything you're saying. What do you think solves it or ameliorates it? Or are we just, is it a one-way door?
Dave Morin: One thing that is different today, Wednesday, July 15th, is that America now has at least one open weights model that, uh, just went out the door. So, you know, Mira Murati's Thinking Machines appears to be a really solid open weights model. You know, it's a almost 975 billion parameter model, million token contacts window, mixture of experts. It's really good, and this thing's open weights and free. You can get it on Hugging Face today. So that's the first American, you know, really sort of heavy-hitting open weights model. So-
Jessica: Right. There's like Reflection and some other, but yes. Nemotron.
Dave Morin: Yeah, but-
Brit Morin: Yeah, NVIDIA would be the biggest competitor, right? In the US.
Dave Morin: Nemotron's fine. This is substantially better. This one's competitive with the Chinese models.
Sam Lessin: I just think at the end of the day, like stopping people from moving software around the world, it's the same thing as stopping them from moving like books around the world. It's just con- it, it's like really weird, right? As a concept to like push on. And like, I'm just like-
Dave Morin: So Sam, does this become... I mean, I think if I'm putting myself into the then ideologies of the big labs, is this more like the Napster fight than it wa- than it is anything? Where, you know, when Napster happened, that was also moving, effectively songs moving around were software moving around the internet, right? And so what happened, this like entire, what was it called? The DMCA kinda-
Sam Lessin: Metallica.
Dave Morin: It was Metallica, it was Jimmy Iovine, it was the, you know, record labels. Like they were like, "We are powerful. We are going to get control over this." And today, you know, on modern computers, like moving around digital music is still incredibly difficult and very hobbled. Like it's like it's a pretty gnarly system they built.
Sam Lessin: The problem with it is like the, like there's some great irony to that example, although I think it's a good one to discuss, which is what do the models do immediately? Like the b- like OpenAI, whatever. They went and ripped the entire internet- ... and broke all copyright and stole everything, right? To like in order to build like version one, and then they get all mad about people distilling them, and like that's literally just people doing to you what you did to everyone. So like I think like-
Dave Morin: I get it.
Sam Lessin: Yes.
Dave Morin: But I'm trying to get into like what's the policy fight here? Is the policy fight really similar? Like are we trying to, you know, in Anthropic's case, they believe this is insanely unsafe. Only they should be able to decide what's safe and what isn't. And so- Let's lock it all down because biological weapons and weapons and weapons, weapons, weapons, right?
Sam Lessin: I mean, look, it, it's a great... There are two things that end all arguments, right? Like national security and then child porn. Like, those are the things you use if you want to win an argument, 'cause no one's gonna argue against them. Like, this is like, the child porn one is, like, the best example ever, 'cause, like, all you have to say is child porn and people lose their shit, and, like, will, like, sacrifice anything to stop it. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, but it's, like, it's a, it's a tough one, right? It'd be... The analogy now would have to be, like, if listening to Metallica would explode your brain, right? Like, that would be the argument. We have to stop Metallica because-
Dave Morin: I mean, it might. Depends on how loud. Yeah.
Sam Lessin: Yeah, exactly. So I, I don't know. I mean, like, I just... I don't know. My, my thing more is just, like, I'm just depressed about the entire thing. I have... I offer no advice. Like, I think, I think this has gone... Like, all of AI, these AI wars are, like, politics and not business or technology at this point, and, like, that's a bummer.
Jessica: But do you see that changing?
Dave Morin: But Sam, w- between last week and this week's pod, you had Meta released Muse Spark at a significantly lower cost, which was, like, a, it was, like, a good business move, and I, I had access to it early, and I was playing with it, and I was like, "Wow, this is really fast and really cheap."
Sam Lessin: It is good. It's good.
Dave Morin: I might actually use this instead of GLM, but then-
Sam Lessin: I told my bot to use it for some things
Dave Morin: ... after it released, it was just kinda like, eh. And so-
Jessica: Well, it's also been six days
Dave Morin: ... I understand, but these were smart business moves. That's, like, a really smart business move. Use your money tree from the aver- We've talked about Meta's advertising money tree for years now. Use that to subsidize the, lower the cost, compete on cost. But it kind of was like, I guess we'll see, you're right, Jess, in, like, a month whether or not that mattered or not.
Sam Lessin: Well, look, I... W- we're, we're back in the, we're back at a story where everyone's like, "Well, it's the application layer." I don't think that's true. I think what it is is, like, there are companies that can use this shit to be way more profitable. They will use that shit, right?
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Sam Lessin: Like, God bless, you know, and, like, those companies will be better, and that's the story of this AI stuff. The actual, like, one model to rule them all, like, we're clearly past that, right? The fact that the, who's in head keeps deep- leapfrogging, and open source is right there, is like, we're just multiplying big numbers. And then there's going to be an attempt because the fundamental business structure is not playing out in a way where any of these trillion-dollar companies really w- win, right? They're just in a expensive war, forever war, right? There's going to be a sh- take a shot at regulatory capture because that actually is the smart business move.
Dave Morin: I guess what I was trying to get into, Sam, is what is making... Like, what has you depressed?
Sam Lessin: The fact that, like, the AI war thing will not be decided by, like, technology. It won't just happen naturally and occur naturally by the laws of economics, which gets you the best product at the cheapest price. People are making plays which are political, not business, right? If that makes sense.
Dave Morin: I see. So if it goes this way. Right now, it is actually playing out pretty purely capitalistic, right? Like-
Sam Lessin: Yeah, yeah. It plays out capitalist, but I think, I think it's very cynical for these companies to even try to switch the field of play from business to politics, right? Like, I think that's a very cynical, anti-American thing to do, to be like, "Okay, we're not gonna play and compete in capitalism in a fair and open system. Instead, we're gonna, like, switch our venue to regulatory capture because it's the only play we have." And I get why they do it, and, like, to some degree as businesses, I don't grudge them the play they need to make. It's, like, the classic you can't win the game, so change the game. Um, but it's also just a bummer, right? 'Cause you're just like, man, like, politics sucks, and, like, business and economics are awesome. And, like-
Dave Morin: We haven't talked about this much, Sam, but do you believe that there is real danger? Like, could there, could there actually be an argument for danger on the other side?
Sam Lessin: For sure, but I don't think anything you're gonna do regulatorily is gonna change that, right?
Dave Morin: But isn't that what Demis' post is about this week? Isn't that what mo- you know, what Anthropic mostly says? Like, that we want to... This stuff is dangerous.
Sam Lessin: But it i- but the problem is, it's, like, kinda like being like, you're talking about the, the stuff as though any one company can control it or any one country can control it. You can acknowledge the fact that giving technical, enormous amounts of technical leverage on all sorts of things has, could be bad for biological weapons or, like, this is, like, the... You can do all sorts of bad stuff with technology. You can do all sorts of good stuff with technology. You can do all sorts of bad stuff with technology. That's what technology is. If we had a monopoly on technology in the US, that would be different. We obviously don't, right? And so in some ways, like, having a, like... It's like all this stuff about global warming and the environment, where, like, one country can take action, but it's completely irrelevant because we live in a connected globe. So it's a dumb thing to do, right? Like-
Jessica: I like that example.
Dave Morin: That's a good example. I hadn't thought of that.
Sam Lessin: It's, like, one of those things where, like, it's kinda like you can go and be like, "This is dangerous," and you're like, you're not wrong. Of course it is. Like, now we can have a army of drones do things? That sounds pretty wild, right? But, like, you taking any action as a single country does nothing, right? Like, and all it does is protect certain companies, right? And their, and their market caps.
Jessica: So just to recap for people, what Demis, the AI leader Google, Hassabis proposed was, like... I, it was this idea that there should be a separate government body that reviews frontier models basically for 30 days prior to their release.
Dave Morin: Like, are we talking the FCC kind of a thing?
Jessica: Kind of, yeah. I mean, the... It is so vague that any way I answered your question would be a guess. But his point was that it would be comprised of technical people and technologists and, you know, instantly got the thumbs up, like, from sort of everyone in AI. I mean, all the AI CEOs, in part because it, like- It wasn't really saying anything, in my opinion. And also, you know, everyone has their different style, but his style is like, you know, "I worked my entire career on AGI and I, because I believe it has the potential to do all of these things, but, you know, who knows if it will," right? Like, trying to pull back the Armageddon is nigh sort of version of, of this stuff from the top labs. But, you know, I think the reality is, you know, there's, these proposals are just all over the place. But to your point, Sam, that this is about sort of politicking, y- you put something out like that to show that you're a thoughtful, concerned participant in the ecosystem or something, right? Like, you don't do it because it's an actual tangible, like, roadmap.
Sam Lessin: Right. No one has any roadmap that makes any sense that actually does anything, right? And so, like, if the plan was, we America, we need to take our military and bomb every matrix multiplication facility globally, right? And we're gonna have all of them, and then we're gonna control AI. That would at least be logical. I'm not saying you should do it. You obviously shouldn't. But I'm saying, like, at least that is, like, a plausible thing. You know, like we're going to make it illegal to have a computer more than this powerful outside the US, right? Like, it's insane. It's World War III, but it's, like, logical, right? With the id- it- other stuff, like people these, "We're gonna do a committee on this," it's like, God bless. Enjoy being on a committee forever. The, the, the only thing you could possibly do... What you could do is somehow say, like, if you're an American taxpaying c- law-abiding company, which is a lot of companies, but certainly not everyone, you have to only use this and you cannot use that. And in theory, a bunch of people and lawyers would make that compo- com- uh, that happen, and then you'd accomplish nothing except for making those companies very valuable, right? Like nothing. You accomplish literally nothing except for that.
Jessica: Okay. I'm gonna give you guys a topic and then I'm gonna bounce because I'm going to another Benson Boone concert tonight and I'm super excited and not missing, uh, that is more important.
Brit Morin: It's like your fourth Benson Boone concert?
Sam Lessin: Guys, Jessica is getting on an airplane to see Benson Boone. Like, that's the point we've reached.
Brit Morin: This is a big deal. For, like, not the first time, like the eighth time or something.
Jessica: I'm, like, crossing a mini ocean.
Brit Morin: Are you actually in love with Benson Boone?
Sam Lessin: I think she might be.
Dave Morin: This is the, the story of two music. Like Brit, Brit and I are going to Chris Stapleton this weekend. You're going to Benson Boone.
Jessica: I am not in love with Benson Boone, but there is something about seeing him perform live that I just find electrifying.
Dave Morin: He does seem good.
Brit Morin: He moves his body well.
Jessica: Guys, his voice is absurd and I need to hear him perform his new song, and it's not as far as it seems, although I do have to take like f- four modes of transportation to get there.
Dave Morin: I'll go in the Bay Area with you sometime.
Sam Lessin: Jessica asked me if I wanted to come, and I was like, "I'm never gon- I'm not gonna get between you and Benson. Go enjoy your Benson evening."
Brit Morin: I think that was a wise husband.
Jessica: But I'm bringing another couple. I'm bringing two fri- like I've been... the more the merrier.
Sam Lessin: Are they both coming now in the last minute or the-
Jessica: They're both coming. This is like the bandwagon.
Sam Lessin: Well, now I'm glad you got two hotel rooms, 'cause that would be a little weird after the Benson concert.
Jessica: It would've been a little weird when my girl trip cra- was crashed by your boyfriend.
Sam Lessin: Let me know, you know, when you come back, you can give me your stories of your wild bender with Benson.
Jessica: I mean, I'm so excited, guys.
Brit Morin: Benson bender.
Jessica: If you have not listened to his new song, just listen to it. Soak it up.
Sam Lessin: It's fine.
Jessica: "Wanted Man" tour. You still have time to get tickets.
Sam Lessin: "Wanted Man" tour. Oh, I get it.
Brit Morin: Oh my God.
Jessica: I... This is what it's called.
Brit Morin: Story writes itself.
Sam Lessin: It just does, doesn't it?
Jessica: And you know, as much as I could talk about AI with you guys, I'm not missing his first song. So with that, I suggest-
Sam Lessin: I'm really happy we have this all on a podcast because when I report back next week, like, there could be amazing, I mean, we could have amazing documentation of what happened
Jessica: ... um, I want you guys to talk about the report now that OpenAI's first consumer hardware device is basically Alexa. It's a smart speaker.
Brit Morin: It's a developer tool though. It's a developer tool.
Jessica: No, no. No, you guys are conflating two things.
Brit Morin: Oh, oh, oh.
Jessica: There, there has now been more reports, The Information, Bloomberg, others. Bloomberg came out with-
Dave Morin: So we're not talking about the merch we were talking about earlier.
Jessica: We're not talking about the merch. We're talking about the fact that sometime this year they are expected to unveil a smart speaker. I swear it's Alexa. What this means, will anyone care?
Dave Morin: No, it's a portable smart speaker, isn't it?
Jessica: You guys can discuss. Sorry, I'm here for someone else. Bye.
Brit Morin: Oh. I got it. That's a Benson Boone lyric for anyone.
Dave Morin: And now we don't have to discuss it and we can keep discussing what we were already discussing.
Brit Morin: No, I do think we should change topics.
Sam Lessin: Right, which is if I'm gonna be married in a week or if my wife is now, is going to hang out with Benson Boone.
Brit Morin: I feel like Sam's in his, like, I don't give a fuck phase of his 40s, so it's totally fine.
Sam Lessin: 100%.
Brit Morin: Which is great. Um, does anyone care about the smart speaker that OpenAI is-
Dave Morin: I don't care.
Sam Lessin: Nope.
Brit Morin: No? Did you think they were gonna launch this or something else? You didn't care either way it sounds like. You don't think any hardware OpenAI launches will be successful?
Dave Morin: I did think it was gonna be something you talk to. Like, it just seems very clear that that's-
Sam Lessin: Of course it means something you talk to
Dave Morin: ... like, verbally though. Like I, I... That seemed clear to me.
Sam Lessin: Are we clear that Sam Altman paid Jony Ive like $8 billion to make him an Alexa?
Brit Morin: And to get sued by Apple, so he actually paid them more than 8 billion.
Dave Morin: I had people complaining to us that we didn't talk about the Apple lawsuit last week, and I was like, "Look, it came af- out after we, after we recorded."
Sam Lessin: I do think it's funny. Like, I actually think this whole thing is, like, pretty interesting because I do think, like, look, Sam Altman is an incredible storyteller, an aspiring Elon level storyteller I would say, in terms of, you know, narrative capitalism and using that for cheap capital. The Jony Ive acquisition thing, especially if it just turns out to be an Alexa, is, like, particularly interesting for this 'cause it was one step along that line of like, "Oh, I'm buying, I'm gonna pay a ton of money for Jony Ive because it will make- Raising more capital cheaper, not more expensive. So it actually, even if it costs a billion dollars on paper, is free to negative cost acquisition just on the brand of Jony Ive, which is an interesting thing.
Brit Morin: Does-
Dave Morin: Yeah, totally.
Brit Morin: Who are other people who have 5 to $10 billion brands? Like are there like legacy people?
Dave Morin: This kind of fits with the... Now that Twitter shows me my friends again, I actually saw your post about the Hollywoodification of, uh, Silicon Valley, or I guess the world, which I kinda like. But that's kind of the same question, right? Like-
Brit Morin: Uh, explain it. I didn't see the post. Can you explain Sam's post?
Dave Morin: Who else are the Steven Spielbergs is the question that's asking.
Sam Lessin: Yeah. Well, I was saying like, I was saying like, look, everyone's joking about how Hollywood's dead, which it obviously is, but I would actually argue in some ways it's like, it's kind of like an Obi-Wan Kenobi situation, which is by striking me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine, 'cause now everything is Hollywood, right? And like, what does that mean? I mean, like, one, like companies are valued on what they actually do, profit, revenue, whatever, and then a multiple on top of that, right? But everything is multiple dominated. You can like make your revenue go up, it doesn't matter. What matters is like people's, what multiple they're gonna assign you and like how they think about you. You know, studios, cabals rule everything just like in Hollywood, right? You need to be able to align with Club Elon or Club OpenAI or Club Meta or Club Google to be valuable. Like if Elon says space data center, overnight anything that has space data center in the title is worth a fortune, even if the day earlier it was worth nothing, right? And so like there's a whole cabal studio system developing. And then there's star power that really matters, right? Meaning like there's people who can open movies, there are people who can open startups.
Brit Morin: So who else are those people in Silicon Valley?
Sam Lessin: I mean, I think, like I think AI researchers is the easy answer.
Brit Morin: Like Alexander Wang, like these types of people?
Dave Morin: No, no, no. Uh, researchers.
Brit Morin: Oh, the researchers. Sorry. But Alexander Wang also got a billion dollar-
Sam Lessin: No, I think Alexander Wang was like a, was a, was a, was a, a character who could op- who can open movies-
Dave Morin: For sure
Sam Lessin: ... was the theory.
Brit Morin: He wasn't a Steven Spielberg.
Sam Lessin: He's a, he's a leading man.
Brit Morin: Okay. So the researchers are worth billions of dollars. Leading men or women.
Dave Morin: Well, no, but Sam's not even talking about what they're worth. It's that can they lead m- can they open movies? Are they headliners, right? Like are they-
Sam Lessin: Or star. Like Mira Murati is like obviously... There was a whole, there was basically like a comedy troupe, which was called OpenAI, that spun out several, uh, leading characters that were able to open movies, right? Like is what I would say.
Dave Morin: I like this. OpenAI is SNL.
Sam Lessin: Yeah, yeah. OpenAI w- like or Meta was SNL for a while, and like Google was clearly an SNL, and PayPal was an SNL. Like there was just like these little thing, like it's like there are these platforms where like people ping off each other, they get whatever, and then like some of them, you know, get to lead movies and some don't. Some become Tina Fey.
Brit Morin: Okay. So Karpathy was another, right? That went to Anthropic.
Sam Lessin: No.
Brit Morin: I'm just wondering who else there is.
Sam Lessin: I don't know. You know, you, look, you know a star when you see them, Brit. I don't know. I think it's like a little hard to like ape prior to be like, "Well, this person's a s-
Brit Morin: It goes to, a little to your creator thing, Sam. I wonder like can you get the upside of these people somehow?
Sam Lessin: No, for sure. I mean, I love that story. But like, look, at the end of the day, I'd say like how do you know someone's a star? Well, there's one of two ways. Either they opened a movie or a few movies and they were super successful at those openings. Like Jack Dorsey is like a leading man, isn't he? Elon's clearly like the... Elon is the, um, what's his name? He's like the Tom Cruise.
Dave Morin: No. Elon's like Spielberg at this point, right?
Sam Lessin: It's like you can bring him to the... You, you can bank his movie from the day, from before it, you know, just 'cause Elon's attached, right? And so like there's like characters like that. And then the only way you become a leading star is like you, someone makes a bet on you and you become a leading star. You know what I mean? But there's like a s- I don't know. I, it's not a perfect analogy, but there is something going on that I think is relevant here.
Brit Morin: Yeah. Okay. Well, regardless, uh, Jony Ive was theoretically worth, was it, whatever, 6 to 8 billion.
Sam Lessin: Well, again, only because he actually, because the market paid for him.
Brit Morin: Right. Right.
Sam Lessin: Right?
Brit Morin: Because the market paid for him.
Sam Lessin: Like Sam didn't pay for him, the market paid for him, even if all he was making was a mini Alexa.
Brit Morin: Well, there has to be a suite of products that he's working on. I would imagine there's more than the Alexa coming. Isn't it funny how the Alexa has become a generic brand?
Sam Lessin: And a big Alexa and a small Alexa?
Brit Morin: You've got the Google Home, you've got the HomePod, you've got all the Alexas in the house.
Sam Lessin: A car Alexa?
Brit Morin: All of the above. Sam, what product would you most want to create if you had to create a hardware AI product?
Sam Lessin: Something that I could sell to someone before launch and take the cash.
Brit Morin: Do you think there's any white space opportunities for that right now?
Sam Lessin: I, I'm like un- I'm completely, I'm completely uninterested in hardware. I like my iPhone. I think it's fine. I like my Garmin watch. I could imagine putting a button on my Garmin watch with a microphone. That would be kinda useful.
Brit Morin: Would you ever wear something that's like turned on all day listening and tracking everything about you?
Sam Lessin: So I would be the poster child for this in theory, right? 'Cause I like have built my own custom shit to upload every photo, and I spend, like a huge amount... Like I, I like, I track, I have millions and millions of data points consolidated on my health, literally millions, like through apps I built. So like I would be the poster boy for passive listening. I tried like the Narrative Clip back in the day. Like I've played with every generation of this. At Fin, we built what's now in vogue, which was like screen recorders plus clickstream data and built huge data systems. So I love the theory of track everything. In practice, like most of what people say isn't that valuable. So I don't know that like passive listening is actually all it's cracked up to be, uh, in the end of the day for usefulness. It's mostly a lot of ums. But look, marginally lowering the barrier to recording stuff is never gonna be bad. I just don't know how valuable it is and how differentiated it'll ever be.
Brit Morin: Dave, what's your take? I don't feel like you're a passive recorder type.
Dave Morin: B- is this because you're speculating that this is what it's going to be?
Brit Morin: Yeah. I feel like the way we've seen rings and necklaces and Alexas and spin-offs of Alexa, like is this where the future's headed?
Dave Morin: If you just look at the release of, I don't remember what the API is called, but I think it's called Live It's clear that streaming real-time interaction with models is, like, one of the major things that OpenAI is researching. And so it seems clear that your question is actually not the question. The question is would you have a participant in your conversations every day that is a third party that's interacting with you in real time? Like, I, I think that's, like, the thing that people... Because a lot of, like, tech-forward people have, like, spent their last year using Granola and then using those transcripts to do things, that's how they think the future looks. I, I don't think that's actually how the future looks. I think the future looks much more real time, in that you're just gonna be, like, streaming, you know, in and out of these things in real time, and they'll, like, tell you things, and it's gonna look much more like that. It's gonna look like what this model was this week.
Brit Morin: Meaning you won't have to prompt something later? Like, it's just gonna be doing things for you.
Dave Morin: No, like, that's what this model this week is that everybody's so impressed with.
Brit Morin: Which model?
Dave Morin: It's called Live, I believe. I don't think you've played with it. It's a voice model.
Sam Lessin: This is the one where it can talk and listen at the same time?
Dave Morin: Yeah. And so it, it's, it's like a purely live real-time voice model. And it seems clear that that's where this stuff is going. And if I were to guess what this hardware stuff is, it's based on that because I think a lot of people are looking at-
Brit Morin: Who released Live?
Dave Morin: OpenAI.
Brit Morin: Okay, just checking. Just I'm clarifying for the listeners. And so that's, that's part of the, okay, of the announcement is, like, it can talk, it can listen all at the same time, so it can be doing things proactively.
Dave Morin: Everyone who's used the, a voice model knows that it's been this pretty janky experience where if you, like, say the wrong thing, it interrupts it. It restarts the inference. It gets confused. This is really good. It doesn't do that stuff anymore. You can just talk to it.
Brit Morin: Have you played around with it?
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Brit Morin: What have you done with it?
Dave Morin: You, you can just do it on ChatGPT and play with it.
Brit Morin: All right. So it seems the consensus is we believe voice models that can listen and talk all at once, um, are going to be... They, they're part of the present, they're part of the future. N- you see- you both seem not, less bullish on recording every single thing every single day.
Sam Lessin: There are very funny, um, like, Instagram memes about people talking to the voice mode being like... Or some guy's like, "ChatGPT, build me a billion-dollar business. Make no mistakes. Be quiet, be quiet, be quiet. Do this. Do this. Like, SaaS app," you know. And, like, so those will get better, I guess. Maybe that's an impact.
Dave Morin: Look, I think there's a different question here, which is that agents in general have a long way to go in order to understand you in your daily context, and that's, like, the bigger, longer story here that I think maybe you're getting at, Brit, is that you just have to have a lot of context in order to make these things as smart as everybody wants them to be. And that's gonna require totally different ways of thinking about memory, totally different ways of thinking about learning algorithms, totally different ways of capturing context. Like, that's what, like, the entire robotics industry is focused on is, like, how do you understand the world? How do you understand, uh, physics around people? How do you understand people's internal state? Like, there's, like, so far to go in terms of getting machines to understand us, um, other than through the text we type into them or the text we speak into them. That, to me, is very interesting but kind of a completely different set of questions.
Brit Morin: What else is captivating you guys lately? Anything exciting on your plate, Sam?
Sam Lessin: I've started messing with peptides, which are quite interesting. We'll do it at a different episode first.
Brit Morin: Oh, yeah, we were supposed to come back to this. Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up.
Dave Morin: What does this mean?
Brit Morin: Oh, did you talk to Mazzeo? Is he gonna come on the pod?
Sam Lessin: Oh, I'm sure he, he'd love to. I'll message him now. Yeah, I, I'm, I, I'm just taking some, and then I'm running a lot. It seems good.
Brit Morin: What are the before and after impacts on your health and body based on your peptide consumption?
Sam Lessin: I've only been doing it for, like, a week and a half, and so, like, I don't think anyone thinks there's real impact yet. But I will just say, like, I've been upping my training volume a lot in terms of, like, the amount I'm running and working out, and I feel much better than I would normally expect to. Like, way better. Mazzeo says he'd love to come on the pod, so maybe we do that next week.
Brit Morin: Okay, great.
Sam Lessin: He can explain peptides to us and show us his bicep 'cause that man loves a bicep.
Brit Morin: I mean, we've all known this guy, Matt Mazzeo, for, like, 20 years now. I can say the before and after photos.
Sam Lessin: He was my fraternity big brother when I was in college.
Brit Morin: Aw, I love that.
Sam Lessin: Shockingly.
Brit Morin: I love it.
Sam Lessin: Shockingly.
Dave Morin: Sam, is this an investable category?
Sam Lessin: I don't... I mean, Matt will tell us. He certainly thinks so. I mean, I, I don't know.
Brit Morin: He'll say, "Yes, invest in my company."
Sam Lessin: Yeah, I mean, I think it, his company's pretty good.
Dave Morin: Well, we know he'll say that, but I wanna, I want a more sophisticated-
Sam Lessin: I don't know. I mean, I think the question is, like, what do we think of, like, hims and hers and Ro and things like that, right? All these generics and, and compounding pharmacies and the whole supply chain there. I mean, the, the... there is brand value, you know, if you can get lower CAC, da, da, da, da. There is a bunch of spend. I don't think this stuff is gonna be FDA... I mean, forget FDA coverage. I don't think it's gonna be covered by insurance anytime soon, so, like, that really cuts the market way, way, way down. Like, if you don't have payers involved, like GLP-1s, it's much harder to make huge businesses out of it. But I don't know. Like, who kn- this is, like, this is a good question.
Dave Morin: I don't know, man. I've been hearing that the FD... I think the FDA is actually meeting next week, um, to talk about them.
Brit Morin: So the FDA has to figure out how they're going to get their shit together to approve so many new things. Like, there's so many new drug discovery funds and companies and, like-
Dave Morin: But not peptides.
Brit Morin: I know. I'm not, I'm just talking more broadly. Like, I think what's coming at the FDA in the next 10 years is gonna be insane. And it's like they're gonna have to figure out how to pace themselves more efficiently and- ... and get through all of these decisions. But yeah, I think peptides would be a really interesting topic, so I'm glad we're talking about it next week. Can I tell you, th- this is more of a feature launch, but I thought it was interesting in the realm of online dating. So Hinge now w- uh, has a feature called Friends Take. So you enlist up to 10 of your close friends, who then have to, like, share written feedback, photos, or voice notes about you.
Dave Morin: Finally.
Sam Lessin: I love it.
Dave Morin: This has been so long coming. Oh my God.
Sam Lessin: But Dave, you don't... I'll tell you this, I'll tell you a story you don't know, which is, you know Mike Galpert, who you've been working with on OpenClaw?
Dave Morin: Yeah, of course.
Sam Lessin: You know what he and I started, like, 15 years ago in our product in New York era?
Dave Morin: No.
Brit Morin: A dating app.
Sam Lessin: Oh, no, sorry. It wasn't... This is funny. Leave this in for the editing 'cause it's funny. It wasn't him. It was Nate Westheimer. Uh, or maybe it was... I can't remember who was Nate Westheimer or MSG. But we started, we started a service with Chris Danzig, who you also know, called Yenta. Right?
Dave Morin: Oh, I remember Yenta.
Sam Lessin: And the whole-
Dave Morin: I remember Yenta.
Sam Lessin: Remember Yenta?
Dave Morin: Yeah, of course.
Sam Lessin: And this was Yenta. We were like, "You don't wanna make your own dating selections. Like, other people should make them for you." And people have tried this before, but I-
Brit Morin: But this isn't your friends picking your dating selections. This is, like, your references, you know? It's like you have 10 references.
Dave Morin: I was on the board of Hinge.
Sam Lessin: Oh, I see. It's a references. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brit Morin: Mm-hmm.
Dave Morin: I was on the board of Hinge-
Brit Morin: Mm-hmm
Dave Morin: ... for, like, six years, and we talked about this idea ad nauseam, and it's still shocking to me that it doesn't exist more broadly in the dating ecosystem.
Sam Lessin: Well, wait, see, to be clear, what you're saying, Brit, is this is not actually the, the help picking. This is, like, a references. This is like LinkedIn references for Hinge.
Brit Morin: I would h- imagine, hopefully, this can evolve to picking. 'Cause if you have networks of your... It's like your top five on MySpace, like we all used to know. And then those people know you so well, they provided references, and then maybe there's, like, some social graph where they can, like, move people into your profile or something. I think that would be a cool next feature move. But I do think, like, why don't we have this already for actual recruiting of talent? Like, shouldn't everyone have photo, video, voice note references from, like, lots of people? I don't know. It's just an... I think the way that we recruit is so outdated. Like, I- we're doing so much recruiting right now.
Sam Lessin: If you go use, um, Vox Americanas, you will notice that the recommendations from other Americans is, like, a key feature. When you follow someone, it asks you for to recommend them or about them, et cetera, endorsements. So I'm, I'm all for endorsements.
Brit Morin: Great. Well, well, we should bring clout back while you do that, so that it's like people of status have higher weight.
Sam Lessin: Clout was f- no, but clout, clout was so fucking stupid. Like, clout always annoyed me. It was, like, such a, like, misunderstanding of how social capital works, like, so fundamentally. But people liked it 'cause people liked scores.
Brit Morin: Yeah, it was gamified. Dave, anything else catching your attention this week?
Dave Morin: I just think it's awesome that Jay-Z turned New York City into a music festival last weekend, and is back on the stage.
Sam Lessin: Wasn't he, like, six hours late on stage?
Brit Morin: That's how all the greatest musicians do it.
Dave Morin: No, the demand for the show, they originally were only gonna do two nights, and they ended up doing a third because the demand was so insane. And then a bunch of people got into a pretty dangerous situation, it sounded like.
Sam Lessin: The only thing I saw from this, 'cause I get all of my information through Instagram, was a video of a guy being like, "The only thing that saved my night waiting six hours for Jay-Z to show up was, uh, this woman twerking," and it was this woman in front of him in the concert twerking for, like, hours. That's how I knew something happened.
Brit Morin: Here was my takeaway. I feel like Jay-Z and Beyoncé actually do fairly little in the day-to-day of, like, keeping their music and marketing brands alive, and then they can just, like, their superpowers, they can come together, throw, like, the most insane event, still be relevant, and even include their family. Like, Blue Ivy was on stage. And so they're becoming this, like, dynastic music empire who doesn't have to work as hard as the other musicians.
Dave Morin: It's also very weird to see Jay-Z and Beyoncé as, like, the golden oldies in New York.
Brit Morin: Oh, you think they're, like, old now and outdated?
Dave Morin: They are old. Jay-Z's 56. He's been doing this for 30 years.
Brit Morin: But, like, weren't young people there? Like, they're still relevant, right?
Dave Morin: Yeah, but, like, this is a millennial oldies concert. Let's be real.
Brit Morin: Ugh.
Dave Morin: You know?
Brit Morin: Really?
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Brit Morin: And Rihanna. Yeah.
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Brit Morin: All right. Well-
Dave Morin: These are... This is, like, the millennials, you know, going to, or going to the Eagles.
Brit Morin: Ew. I hate that we're that old.
Dave Morin: Yeah.
Brit Morin: All right. Well-
Dave Morin: I mean, Jay-Z's first album came out when I was in high school, right? Like, a lot of these songs.
Brit Morin: Yeah, and you're really old.
Dave Morin: I'm super old.
Sam Lessin: You really are old, Dave.
Brit Morin: We're all in our 40s, let's just say that, but I'm the youngest. I just wanna make sure everyone knows.
Sam Lessin: I don't... Yeah, but my, my heart rate might be the lowest.
Brit Morin: Ooh, I wanna do all of our biological ages on a future pod.
Sam Lessin: Yeah, th- it's such bullshit. It's such bullshit.
Dave Morin: We can do heart rates.
Sam Lessin: Listen, I have done all of these because I'm closet, kinda like Brit on some of this stuff. And, like, and my biological age is, like, a variance of 10 years based on whether you do DEXA or Garmin or whatever the hell. Like, they're all different. It's all bullshit.
Dave Morin: It's true. It's total bullshit.
Brit Morin: You do blood tests. You do blood.
Sam Lessin: I've done the blood test. I did the, I did the, um-
Dave Morin: Biological age is, like, the clout score of your body.
Brit Morin: It's the clout score of your body.
Sam Lessin: I'm convinced cortisol is bad for you, by the way.
Dave Morin: Yeah, it is.
Brit Morin: I'm convinced women should be microdosing testosterone.
Sam Lessin: Interesting. We'll talk about that later.
Brit Morin: We'll talk about that with Mazzeh. All right.
Sam Lessin: I have to go. Bye, friends. Bye.
Brit Morin: Thanks everyone out there for listening, and if you liked this episode, please rate, review, subscribe. And we will see you next week, hopefully with Matt Mazzeo-
Sam Lessin: Or don't
Brit Morin: ... to talk about peptides.
Sam Lessin: Or don't.
Brit Morin: Or more tech stuff and AI models.
Sam Lessin: Like, really do, do, do what, do what moves you. I don't think I've ever liked a video on YouTube. How can we ask people to do things we would never do?
Brit Morin: Because you have to do that. That's modern marketing, Sam.
Sam Lessin: How do people fall for that?
Brit Morin: Like, rate, review, subscribe.
Dave Morin: I like-
Brit Morin: I don't know, it's just reminders for them-
Dave Morin: I like things on YouTube
Brit Morin: ... to do it.
Dave Morin: I like it.
Brit Morin: I don't know, share it with a friend. Listen to the next one. Just do something-
Sam Lessin: Or-
Brit Morin: ... to be engaged. Or don't. If you're having a good summer-
Sam Lessin: Don't
Brit Morin: ... just come back whenever you feel like it.
Sam Lessin: Enjoy your run.
Brit Morin: Let's do anti-marketing.
Sam Lessin: Enjoy your run. Enjoy your drives.
Brit Morin: Actually, stop listening. Do whatever you want.
Sam Lessin: Yeah. Only, only idiots listen to this stuff. All right.
Brit Morin: Okay.
Dave Morin: There we go.
Sam Lessin: Bye.
Brit Morin: All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye-bye.
Dave Morin: See you guys later.
Brit Morin: If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes, and follow us on social media by searching for @moreorless, @davemorin, @lesson, @jlesson, and as for me, I'm @brit. See you guys next time.